[mgibbons19]

My point is all this talk about caring for others and not being selfish is pointless. Only good for feeling good (or bad).

Several ppl count on me to do the best I can for them and myself. So hippie talk of a utopia where everyone works together and focuses on others aside - the real question is:

What can I do to make a difference for those who rely on me now and in the future?

Turns out, I can affect that, and so I will.

If you read closely, that's all that Nik and Hawk are saying.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') am feeling less afraid.

No debt, little farm with no mortgage, small (very) amount of cash for startup and some beans and flour.

My advice if you are scared is to lash your suitcases together and lower yourself quietly over the side and start rowing – the sharks are ON the ship and human nature has proven over and over that it can’t be turned around.

Worse thing that can happen is you sit at the window and look out at the rain on the hay field instead of at the traffic jam.

[nigel]

hawkcreek - so many false assumptions, misrepresentations and wishful thinking! You have not an inkling as to my skills and circumstances, experience, education, training or skills - manual, intellectual, emotional, spiritual or otherwise.

If speculative abuse is the best you can manage by way of argument - give in now!

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nigel', 'S')elf Self Self - that's the origin of the consumer problem and that's your solution. It's no wonder the world's in such a mess. ME ME ME ME ME.

[nigel]

Jack - man has got this far ( ) because we are social animals. All this mess was a team effort! Going back to the caves and starting all over again is hardly a step forwards is it?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nigel', 'J')ack - man has got this far ( ) because we are social animals. All this mess was a team effort! Going back to the caves and starting all over again is hardly a step forwards is it?

[Guest]

Nigel - your expectations of human nature delineate the conduct you're likely to meet.

Be very careful.

Aim high, or you miss the point of society.


Backstop.

[nigel]

hawkcreek - more false assumptions and still no argument.

If you bother to look at societies where the SHTF you find that the masses in the cities dominate the peasant farmers and then rip them off - look at Russia 1917 - Lenin's New Deal - the peasants died in 100,000's. Look at a more civilized nation under the kosh - Britain 1940-45 militarised society, heavily policed, rationing - sure, the farmers got the extra carrot and a small black market was tolerated to keep the rich quiet (normal pattern for rationed societies) but the best fed and watered worked for the group, for the society, not for those selfishly seeeking to provide only for themselves.

Someone mentioned on this site that the police, being blue collar might rebel against the state. States ( societies) are not new to this problem either - they pay them more. Saddam Husseins Republican Guard, Mugabe's thugs ... Look at your own LA police - they are so well treated they can retire at 50 on 90% of final salary! Why are they allowed to spend 25 yrs at school ONLY 25 yrs working and 40 years retired on social money? Because it's thought worth it to keep your poor people in line. In a real crisis, this American grown system of control will simply be extended out to the Ozarks and beyond!

I don't think the selfish route is morally right or works best. As for you Backstop - what are you on about? I am aiming high and arguing against these 'I'm alright Jack' smug, selfish, run to the woods types! Hawkcreeks idea of being prepared is to look after himself! SELF SELF SELF. He despises social debate and social interaction - running off at the mouth, is how he describes it! Everything he's got comes from society, from interaction, from debate - how does he react at time of need - wants to keep it to himself and run off! I doubt those running the martial law system will tolerate it nor the masses fail root it out.

The human race will find a way to survive by harnessing and rewarding the productive and killing off the useless and selfish. Look south, that rising, foaming, starving, desperate, cunning, creative, ingenious, stupid, intelligent, ruthless, human magma's that's already coming your way, north, to the land of milk and honey and apple pie. They all want to eat, own SUV's and Kalashnikovs....

Live, join the police and kill people?

[cthulhu]

Nigel: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you bother to look at societies where the SHTF you find that the masses in the cities dominate the peasant farmers and then rip them off - look at Russia 1917 - Lenin's New Deal - the peasants died in 100,000's. Look at a more civilized nation under the kosh - Britain 1940-45 militarised society, heavily policed, rationing - sure, the farmers got the extra carrot and a small black market was tolerated to keep the rich quiet (normal pattern for rationed societies) but the best fed and watered worked for the group, for the society, not for those selfishly seeeking to provide only for themselves.

[nigel]

cthulhu - Still doesn't scan for me. Who said the peasants deserved to die? That's your take, not mine. I'm reminding you what happened when this type of situation occured in real life, not in some rosy dream.

Hawkcreeks is happy if his grand children play safely on his hill. Me, I'm thinking about how his grandchildren will manage to live after he's had his great life. I want human society to survive, not a pack of selfish, devil take the hindmost animals grovelling in the dirt. We've come a long way since then - why make it one's aim to regress?

Perhaps it's the self-centered lack of vision I'm railing against?

There's Jack, who at least realises a one unit band will struggle to self-sustain even on a perfect farm with perfect weather conditions, no crop failures, water shortages, winter storeage failures, animal diseases and the rest - BECAUSE the lazy or crop failed starving will try their damndest to survive by getting his food - so he posits a platoon of 50 defenders...with 50 wives...with 100 kids...with 100 more farm labourers required..with more 400 sick old parents to look after... that's how we got here!

Turning back the clock makes no sense to me at all. Perhaps this survivalist, selfish thing that some Americans are into is caused by a lack of historical perspective and imagination? They seem to begin their ideas with Waggontrain and apple pie with kite flying kiddies on the hill and old gramps to tell bedtime stories about the big bad wolf. Take a look through the European Middle Ages if you want to see how all that rural self-sufficiency pans out - from stockades through mud hill forts, moats and castles. No rural dream back then. The wolves were real.

Leave yesterday where it belongs.

[Pops]

Jack, you are probably right about being isolated if the worst happens. As I’ve urged from the start, one should make their best assessment and plan accordingly – I’m betting the worst won’t happen.

But I do believe small towns will make a revival look here: http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1770.html

BTW Nigel you are right as well about everyone moving to the Ozarks, way too many folks moving here now, they should all stay where they came from! LOL!

[nigel]

Pops - part of me envies what I imagine to be your lifestyle. Enjoy it while you can. I hope it goes well for you. As we've discussed before, I don't go for the die-off stuff either.

My point, as laboured as I have made it and as misrepresented as it has been by others above, is what most intelligent people on this site acknowledge: the so called American dream ( which culturally probably came from over here, with its ME ME ME mentality - which both our societies now promote and share) is in fact an unsustainable nightmare. Those who are only now waking up to the reality of where this has led are understandably riven by fear. People like us probably read Vance Packard's WASTEMAKERS many years ago so we've seen it coming. What I hadn't forseen was the sheer speed of progress the Chinese are making, having skipped over several development layers in one go, those guys want what we've got NOW and there isn't enough to go around. What annoys me is the smug and the selfish solution - I'm alright Jack - is how we came by here, it's not the way on.

What we ALL need is a new sustainable dream that does not make consumption a god. For the masses, it can't be on small farms. There are too many mouths to feed and economies of scale to consider.

[nigel]

hawkcreek - such venom - tut tut - at your age you should know better - I've obviously hit you where it hurts. Sorry about that. But you know what they say about the truth...

And if you bother to read what I say rather than make it up - you'll see, in the post immediately above yours, that I don't believe in the die-off crap.

Your vision of the countryside full of guns and cowboys defending their own - poor old you.

Let's blame it on 84 years of TV.

[nigel]

You wrestle with pigs?
We eat ours.

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '
')Oh, and those peasants slaughtered by the masses from the cities didn't have guns - lots of guns - and lots of country friends with lots of guns - like we country folk in the USA have. It may be a war, but I doubt if you can call it a slaughter.