[frankthetank]

Its not just RVers...

link


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hough prices are topping off at record highs with the peak summer driving period just around the corner, consumers seem to be hardly taking note. In fact, gasoline consumption has picked up and experts are predicting that this spring and summer will produce record high demands for fuel.

[pip]

I've got an '82 Winnebago with a diesel if anybody's buying.

[RiverRat]

Over the weekend, I saw two separate local news segments on high gasoline prices in my area. Currently… gas prices are between $2.10 and $2.17.

Based on the people interviewed at the pumps, it’s apparent that people are not very pleased with the situation. One lady interviewed said that she will cancel her yearly plans to drive to the beach in May if prices stay high. A long haul semi driver said that the high price of gas is becoming ‘painful’.

I can sense a growing wave of discontent. If prices tick up to $2.50 or $2.75 we will see more and more of these ‘human interest’ segments. Unfortunately, there can be little done to mitigate the high prices that will not impede on the status quo

[frankthetank]

I heard that in a city in MN stopped investigating (?) gas drive offs because they've become so common (around here you still on the honor system

It seems that most people i talk to seem to complain, but always end up saying "i've got to have it" <--just like a crack head...

[hull3551]

Well gas price impacts some more than others. Obviously, some cheeseball TI exec has no problem forking out the cash to fill his behemoth. On the flip side, Mr. and Mrs. Middle Income – traveling on a fixed budget to Disney World – are going to have a much greater problem working this 50% y-o-y increase of fuel into their vacation plans. Somehow, I think RV sales are going to suffer, and yes, maybe the upper-end models will not be impacted that greatly, but consider that 1.75% of the US economy (ie, GDP) was driven by home equity spending in 2004, I foresee a catastrophic ripple effect once inflation increases (due to sustained high oil prices), interest rates increase, home values do not appreciate as quickly (or even decline), etc.

[RealityCheckBounced]

I don't even see $3 stopping anything. Personally I think $3 or $4 is a very fair price given supply. I get soooo sick of hearing people bitch when gas goes up .25 cents. I think if 25 cents increase upsets people then their consuming too much gas plain and simple. (not suprisingly these are the same people who pay $2 for a bottle of water). I think people just like to complain.
I get 30 miles to a gallon so one gallon easliy lasts a day or two (I live a mile from work). Gas could hit $10 before it really impacted my driving habits and even then there wouldn't be much i could do to reduce them.

[bobaloo]

I live in RV central, Monaco is the largest single employer in Lane County, Oregon, and they're always complaining that they can't find enough workers to keep up with demand. They had a record year last year. A gal I work with has a 24' RV and has decided that just isn't big enough, she needs a 32' or so for her and her husband to be comfortable when "camping".

It amazes me, I don't know what it's going to take to slow down the sales. I guess it's just another aspect of the bifurcation of the American economy, the "haves" are buying the RV's, at least until they become have-nots.

[pea-jay]

RV demand seems at this moment to be driven by demographic growth rather than being restricted by high fuel costs. Look at the average buyer...more than likely a late middle aged white male that is either near retirement or just retired. That group is growing as the BaBoos age. And if you ask me, if you can fork over one to two hundred thousand dollars for an RV, gas or diesel costs are not of serious concern to you.

High gas prices will not crimp RV sales or usage. Wealth destruction will. When these individuals see their savings (if any) decimated by stock market and realestate declines, their job vanish and their future prospects appear bleak, that is when RV purchasing will cease. RVs are not sustainable post peak. They are niched enough they are likely not canaries either.

MEANWHILE...Check this out--the RV GARAGE!

We have some of these monstrocities permitted and constructed in my city (not my doing) but no builder is currently advertising models for sale. This builder in Laughlin Nevada (location itself, no laughing matter) is selling the "Windsor"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ocated within the all single story community that does not have any association fees, this majestic home is spacious. Look at the floor plan and you will see the huge great room, large master suite, and optional RV garage(+ $20,500) as shown complete with hookups. Standard three car garage per plan. Ceramic tile foyer as you enter the volume ceiling rooms built with high quality. Many customizable options available from fireplaces to a gourmet kitchen.

[RiverRat]

Listen ... I'm not sure about the photo of the home attached above, but I've seen entire subdivisions with a RV ownership 'REQUIREMENT'.

Imagine ... an entire neighborhood of the photo above (some subs with over 150 properties in 'em)

[Michael_Layden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', '
')
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7296560/

[formandfile]

Ill be snowboarding in hell before i buy one of these recreation cruisers, but for the folks that already own them it might not be a bad idea to just park it and hang on to it. Extra living space will come in handy if oil-dependant in-laws show up at your doorstep one day asking for help

[BabyPeanut]

RV garage

[Peepers]

Although not a "late-breaking news" article, it's worth reading and sharing with others....
__________________

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps ... 04/-1/AUTO

THE COST OF CARS
Driving is more expensive than most realize

Published: Sunday, June 26, 2005
Tim Johnson, Free Press Staff Writer
PART 3 OF A 4-PART SERIES

Free parking can cost more than you might think. Suppose you want to buy a pair of shoes at University Mall, which offers more than 3,100 spaces where you can park your car without feeding a meter or paying a parking fee.

Somebody pays for you to park there, though. So-called free parking -- provided by suburban shopping centers and employers -- is one of the big, hidden subsidies of car use in Vermont and across the country. It's hidden because it's a cost associated with cars that escapes most people's notice.

Cars impose other costs that drivers don't pay directly. What about the costs of building, maintaining and policing all the roads and highways that accommodate all the cars and trucks? Drivers don't pay the full share of those costs.

And what about the costs that cars impose on the environment -- such as toxic air pollution, or oily stormwater runoff, or greenhouse gas emissions? Drivers don't pay directly for those costs.

Most drivers are well aware of the direct costs of owning a car -- insurance, maintenance, loan payments, and of course, gasoline -- which seem high enough these days. But they're not so aware of the expenses they impose. Driving a car or truck costs more than they realize.

Why does this matter? Because people drive more than they would if they knew what it was really costing, resulting in more time-wasting congestion, more dependence on foreign oil, and a more car-dependent lifestyle that shows up in various ways, from rising obesity levels to sprawling urban design.

Consider parking: From strip malls to supermarkets to big retail emporiums, abundant parking is an American commonplace. Zoning ordinances typically require a certain number of parking spaces fo each 1,000 square feet of floor space. For the University Mall, the benchmark is 5.5 spaces. And the custom, at the University Mall and virtually every other suburban shopping complex, is to let customers park for free.

But it's not really free. Somebody pays property taxes to South Burlington every year on the multilevel parking ramp at the University Mall, and on all the land for the surface parking lots. Somebody pays to maintain those parking areas -- to plow the snow, paint the lines, keep them lighted and cleaned, safe, well-paved and in good repair. Somebody pays for the financing costs that came with building the lots and the ramp.

At first glance, that somebody is University Mall, which owns the ramp and the parking lots. University Mall, however, passes these costs on to its tenants -- more than 70 stores -- who pay for common-area maintenance, including the costs of and taxes for the parking areas. It's an overhead cost that national chains such as Sears, or JC Penneys, take into account when they make corporate decisions on such matters as pricing or staffing levels.

Do the stores pass those costs on to the customers?

Parking expenses are a cost of doing business, acknowledged Dorothy Micklas, manager of JC Penneys at University Mall, but she said she couldn't pinpoint any effects it might have on pricing, staffing or anything else in the store.

"We have to stay competitive with everyone, whether they’re in a mall or not," Micklas said.

Asked if overhead costs, such as parking, figure into how merchandise is priced at the corporate level, a spokeswoman for Kohl’s Department Stores replied: "We would not comment on that."

Still, it seems only fair for you, the customer, to pay something for the privilege of parking at Vermont’s largest enclosed mall. Fair, that is, unless you go there on foot. In that case, you’re subsidizing all the car-driving mall patrons when you do your shopping.

What car owners pay

With gasoline prices over $2 a gallon, the immediate cost of operating a car seems high enough by itself. For most households, in Vermont and across the country, transportation is the second highest annual expense, after housing.

"How much are you really paying to drive?" asks the AAA, a federation of motor clubs. The answers are spelled out in "Your Driving Costs 2005," an annual publication that offers spreadsheets for different kinds of vehicles and different miles driven per year.

Consider vehicles that travel 15,000 miles a year. (The Environmental Protection Agency puts the national average at about 12,000 miles; the average in Vermont, a rural state, is believed to be somewhat higher, but no average figures are available from the state Agency of Transportation.)

For a 2005 Chevrolet Cavalier LS, the cost is 47.6 cents per mile, according to the AAA. That’s $7,140 a year.

For a 2005 Chevrolet TrailBlazer LS, it’s 77.7 cents per mile, or $11,655 a year.

This analysis includes costs for fuel ($1.939 per gallon was used, a late-2004 price), maintenance, tires, depreciation, finance and license, registration and taxes, and insurance (see box).

The Internal Revenue Service puts a lower figure on the cost of operating a vehicle for business purposes. As of Jan. 1, the deductible rate for cars, vans, pickups and panel trucks has been 40.5 cents per mile.

How do these sorts of expenses play out in Vermont, where slightly more than half the households (according to the 2000 U.S. Census) own two or more vehicles?

Every year, the Vermont Joint Fiscal Office prepares a report on "Basic Needs Budgets," a market-based analysis of annual living expenses. Here’s what the 2005 report says about transportation as a share of the annual budget of two kinds of rural families.

For a single parent with one child, transportation accounts for $5,511 a year, or 16.5 percent of the annual household budget.

For two working parents with two children, transportation accounts for $12,349 a year, or 23.4 percent of the household budget.

What car owners don’t pay

Daunting as these expenses seem, they’re understated. That’s because they don’t include subsidies of motor vehicle use -- parking, highway costs not covered by such user fees as federal and state gasoline taxes and damage from motor vehicle accidents not covered by insurance.

What’s more, there’s another U.S. subsidy not typically associated with transportation that leads many people to spend more time in the car than they otherwise might. It’s the national housing subsidy, in the form of a federal tax deduction for mortgage interest. Tony Redington, a transportation planner in Montpelier, points out that housing subsidies "directly contribute to car dependency by encouraging households to trade extra transportation costs into the countryside for the lower costs of land and housing that the countryside provides."

How big is the housing subsidy? Mortgage interest deductions totaled $596 million in Vermont last year, according to the IRS. Nationally, the figure was $360 billion.

"The car and truck subsidy is a public policy choice," Redington said. "Canada taxes gas at a higher rate but has no federal highway program (or transportation either), and does not subsidize home ownership -- or public transit to any great extent."

A car-subsidy sampler

Drivers don’t pay the full cost of highways. Highway-user revenues -- that is, fees, imposed directly on drivers who use the roads, such as fuel and vehicle taxes and tolls -- pay for about 55 percent of the total revenue used for highways nationwide, according to the Federal Highway Administration. That total comprises federal, state and local government spending. The other 45 percent -- in effect, a subsidy -- comes from various other sources, including property taxes.

In Vermont, state expenditures for highways come from user fees and taxes (the state tax on gasoline is 20 cents a gallon). Local governments’ highway spending, however, typically draws on the property tax.

As for parking, the subsidy comes in different forms.

There’s free parking for commuters, for example. If it’s on publicly owned land, the subsidy is paid by taxpayers. If it’s offered at the workplace, the employer pays; and for the employee, it’s usually an untaxed fringe benefit, one that effectively promotes single-occupancy commuting. Employees who don’t drive are seldom offered alternative compensation.

One study estimated the value of free parking for employees at $85 billion a year.

Vermont’s largest private employer, IBM, offers free parking for its 6,000 employees, on lots that cover about 40 acres. (IBM also encourages ride-sharing and van pooling.) The annual cost to the company -- for maintenance, snowplowing, security, and so on -- is about $1 million, according to Jeff Couture, company spokesman.

Then there’s the parking that’s commonly offered free at suburban retail centers, where the cost is borne by the businesses and their customers -- whether they drive or not.

University Mall, for example, pays real estate taxes on its parking ramp, built in 1987 and valued at $3.5 million; and on 51 acres of land around the shopping complex, most of which is used for parking, and valued at about $5 million.

The annual property tax bill just for the ramp and the land amounts to about $225,000. As for the cost of maintaining the parking areas, a publication of the Urban Land Institute put the typical annual cost at $200 per surface parking space. Asked for University Mall’s parking maintenance expense, general manager Heather Tremblay declined to provide a figure, but she said $200 seemed high. Even if the cost is $100 a space, though, the maintenance cost for 2,200 surface spaces is about as much as the property tax bill. That doesn’t include the cost of repaving the parking lots, done in stages every five years or so.

The parking subsidy might be a good deal for the mall’s driving customers -- the crowded parking lots are a testament to that. But what about the nondrivers? It is possible to ride a bike to the mall (South Burlington even installed a bike path along Dorset Street) or to take the bus.

In May, 22,126 people boarded the University Mall/Airport bus, according to the Chittenden County Transit Authority. That was up 10 percent from the previous year.

How many of those people got out at University Mall? No one knows. CCTA doesn’t keep track of that.

The transit agency does keep track of how many people board the Williston bus, which runs from University Mall to the county’s other big suburban retail complex: Last month, 4,945 people rode the bus to Taft Corners. So, how much does the overall car subsidy amount to?

"I have used the figure of 8 cents a mile," Redington said, "representing most measurable costs -- health-related costs, bad air, value of deaths and major injuries not compensated for by insurance, road construction and maintenance out of general funds. Free parking is a big part of the 8 cents." Some research puts it higher, he said. He pointed out that his calculation does not include "national defense for oil supplies or global warming."

One thing to realize," Redington added, "for many, not having a car is true freedom -- no car insurance, no car payments, no parking hassles, and utilizing the money saved for more valuable things -- like vacation trips."


END

[fossilnut2]

Everything can be shown to have silmilar costs.

Here is the corollary. What is the cost to society of NOT having cars? Not having folks go to work, shop, kids attending school to learn, etc. The 'space' a car takes up only has an economic value if something else was going to be done with it. Nothing else would be done with it because no infrastructure is available to produce wealth to produce capital to use the space for production.

I agree completely that there are often costs that need to be taken into account. Especially those to the environment. The world is all about trade-offs. That's why many (though not all) think capitalism better reflects those trade-offs better than a managed economy. Supply and demand has its warts but the warts are usually less than those of other systems.

Imagine trying to get economists to all agree to the 'cost' of a product or service outside of the immediate supply and demand costs. Nothing would be agreed on and any final figure would be artificial and be a recipe for stifling other areas (this is what happened in the Soviet Union). We do impose non-supply and demand costs in capitalistic societies but do it with moderation. It's called bureacracy and government regualtion. We're always trying to achieve the right balance of what is 'too much and not enough' control.

[Revi]

There are a huge number of Americans who don't drive. They live in the 19th and early 20th century infrastructure that was abandoned by most of us in the late 20th century. They take the bus, shop locally and live simple lives.

[Peepers]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fossilnut2', 'W')hat is the cost to society of NOT having cars? Not having folks go to work, shop, kids attending school to learn, etc. The 'space' a car takes up only has an economic value if something else was going to be done with it. Nothing else would be done with it because no infrastructure is available to produce wealth to produce capital to use the space for production.

[fossilnut2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'T')here are a huge number of Americans who don't drive. They live in the 19th and early 20th century infrastructure that was abandoned by most of us in the late 20th century. They take the bus, shop locally and live simple lives.

[Peepers]

The reason why the clerk got to the store, or the doctor to the office by car is because we pay for more than half of their costs for driving every April 15th. The didn't pay for most of her trip that day. Had she, the clerk probably wouldn't have driven and, for that matter, the store probably wouldn't have been located in a sprawling suburb that can be served only by cars, IN ADDITION (not in place of) than by walking, cycling or transit. Ditto for the doctor, who might have still owned a car because he probably gets paid a lot more than the store clerk, and can actually afford to own one.

That is unlike the store clerk who, because of auto subsidies and land use patterns, has no choices left but to own a car, using nearly half of her $16,000 per year wages to get around. Increase the costs of driving to where the real costs are more accurately reflected, and these sprawling suburbs become obsolete. People move back into the cities, in mixed-income neighborhoods, increasing the purchasing power of those neighborhoods, increasing the retail, service and employment opportunities there. Transit becomes more cost-effective with greater density and higher costs of driving, reducing transit subsidies as well.

I am not arguing for a return to 19th infrastructure (and most others with New Urbanist philosophies aren't either). But our highway infrastructure is incredibly overbuilt, to the point that we can't afford to maintain it anymore, yet we keep expanding it. This isn't the action of a rational nation. It's the action of a drug addict, or insane person who keeps expecting that more of the same will cause a different result.

Our out-of-control addiction to the car is, without any reasonable dispute, the reason why America uses more than three times as much oil as China, yet we have one-fourth the population. It is also the reason why American motorists account for an astounding 10 PERCENT of all oil use in the world. We should be ashamed of that, not of trying find a better way to reign in our addiction to the black crack.

To ignore this fact is to dismiss the biggest problem on the planet when it comes to peak oil. It's not that oil isn't renewable. It's that America's addiction to the car treats oil as if it will go on forever. It's why we keep kidding ourselves into the thinking the oil sands will save us, or oil shale, or hydrogen, or biomass, or ethanol... The only thing that will save us is to finally assign as many of the true costs of driving to it as can be reasonably accomplished, but in a transitional manner, over a number of years, so cities can be rebuilt, transit systems upgraded, railways enhanced, and pedestrian and bicycle facilities built.

Who knows? By then we might actually have true freedom in this nation.

KJP

[Ji-Ji]

Trillions for building and maintaining a roadwork infrastructure so people can drive in cars by themselves. DOT's keep trying to build their way out of congestion but the traffic just grows to the new capacities.

[CarlinsDarlin]

Peepers,
Good article. Thanks for sharing. Are the other 3 parts available on line?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or most households, in Vermont and across the country, transportation is the second highest annual expense, after housing.