Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Entropy Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 21:24:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')Yes the apples rot but within each is a seed.

Namaste
You are very kind, my friend. Namaste
User avatar
PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11363
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 21:34:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'W')hat if the Universe was a perpetual motion lifeform?


Why does everything *have* to go on forever, fine, determine if the physics adds up and predicts it, but don't demand that it has to first.

Just like our "souls", hey, it's pretty groovy being alive and all that, but that does not mean our "souls" have to exist forever.

Living things get born/(hatch/split etc) then die, planets are formed then subsumed by dieing stars, galaxys form then slowly cool.

Why does there always have to be some overriding purpose?

How do you measure purpose?
User avatar
rogerhb
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4727
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 21:57:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')Please enlighten the PO readers as to what exactly is at the Earth's Core.
Something nobody has ever seen.

Sorry, you will need to expand on your discourse PMS, other than trumping your accomplishments and using words like silly.

So is it Math you teach?

Namaste
The Earth's core issue goes back to my studies in College in Earth Sciences. Some people think the Earth's core is full of abiotic oil! But abiotic oil won't create a magnetosphere around the Earth. It takes molten metals to do that. We 'see' into the Earth with seismic waves. Similar in fact to knocking on a wall to see if it is hollow, but more advanced. Sorry if I sounded like some other posters who toot their own horns; sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. 8) Now, as the stockbroker said, Entropy started out as a mechanical idea but then it morphed into a philosophical concept. A 'Law Of Thermodynamics' doesn't just describe heat in machines. It's a Natural Law with all that involves. Consider Time's Arrow, Raph, how could the Earth reverse it? I have a dual credential to teach in California for Math and Physical Science. Once again, the apple metaphor was appreciated.
User avatar
PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11363
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby knoppix2004 » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 23:31:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')Who are you quoting?

How about a review from amazon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It is almost unfair to review this book, because it has been roundly and rightly ignored for so many years. Mr. Rifkin, for the sake of his more recent work, likely wishes to keep things that way. To anyone interested in thermodynamics, simply look elsewhere; this book is not about entropy in any sense common to science (or English). To those interested in ecology, do not pollute your arguments with this babble. This book is a study in how not to do background research, and how not to construct an argument. The Amazon.com cliché is totally apt: this is the worst book I have ever read.

Rifkin and Howard want to show that energy consumption has accelerated over history, and that we should curb the trend. It's a reasonable sentiment. Unfortunately, they try to make their case for the impending destruction of Earth by borrowing the concept of entropy, or disorder. We all know that energy consumption has been rising ever faster; the authors point out that the laws of thermodynamics dictate that entropy on Earth must also be rising ever faster. Consequently, if these trends continue, disorder will rule and the planet will crumble into dead chaos. The authors prescribe a return to "low-entropy" lifestyles, as in the Classical Age.

Fortunately for us, the laws of thermodynamics do not agree. The authors also do not seem to realize that planet with life is more ordered (has lower entropy) than pre-biotic Earth. Similarly, entropy is mighty low where billions of complicated humans (not to mention other species) interact in countless ways in a miraculous, self-perpetuating system of systems within systems. With each building erected, manatee born, or stock market founded, Earth's entropy falls.

Let's leave aside the cartoonish five page summary of Western history (from an "entropic" view point), and the fact that this volume is cited more by creation scientists (Google it yourself) than by anyone else. The authors have no idea what they're talking about. When you see Entropy at a garage sale, thrift store, or dump, feel free to leaf through it and laugh, but be sure to leave it there.

P.S. One reviewer of Rifkin's Algeny (I think) noted that Rifkin has actually (maybe accidentally) written some useful volumes (Algeny was not one, however--see S.J. Gould in Discovery magazine). Based on Rifkin's new faith in the "hydrogen economy," I can't believe it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067029 ... s&v=glance


There is no point to argue. You people don't like the truth :(
We are babies, we must cry.
Oil is Peaking, we must lie.
la la la la la la la...
User avatar
knoppix2004
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu 30 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Louisiana
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 23:50:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('knoppix2004', '
')There is no point to argue. You people don't like the truth :(
A lying swindler scheming stockbroker with self-doubts?
User avatar
PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11363
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Top

Re: <>

Unread postby iisthatwhichiis » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 00:04:43

[smilie=4robot.gif] Hi All,

This from a Lay ed back Man as you can get.

While the laws of thermodynamics still apply, there is one thing that goes against entropy. Life.

All life creates order out of chaos.

Wind will scatter twigs but a bird will gather them, build a nest, lay eggs and create new life.

Even as religions and greed will divide, destroy and create chaos, spirituality (for want of a better term) and love will bring order.

Some claim that the universe became sentient. Call this The Force, the Great Spirit, God, the Creator, Allah, or what you will. This Force has guided Evolution by creating more life through out itsself. It experiences all life.

Peace, light, and love.
User avatar
iisthatwhichiis
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby cheRand » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 00:40:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat if the Universe was a perpetual motion lifeform?

Yes the apples rot but within each is a seed.



(Bullshit Alert: This is ONLY my hypothesis.)

There is a Joseph Tainter article linked someplace on the website... Tainter, Like Diamond in Collapse, describes increasing complexity as having diminishing marginal returns-- the fallacy of systems which ultimately fail.

Analogously, increasing complexity is natural law rolling the dice late in the game, boxed-in by the "sunk-cost" of decisions (or genetic limitations). Put another way, complexity is characteristic of unstable systems using consciousness to correct back to stability.

So if we drop the homocentric worldview and look at it objectively, then complexity isn't building toward perfection-- it is correcting, for continued existence.

OK, all you science folks will not want me to use the word consciousness... but it is the same as natural law. (Except to Alan Dershowitz).

Likewise, drop the homocentricity, and you will no longer have to fashion the universe into your image: Man, an animal, born moving toward death, whose purpose is immortality because he can imagine a bit of it. Tragically, we're finite and doomed. And if the universe gets empty, it would be but a curiousity.

My Vote: Entropy does not prove creation. It proves that there is an "energy tax" imposed by nature and enforced by natural law.
User avatar
cheRand
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon 29 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Oklahoma
Top

Re: <>

Unread postby Bedevere » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 01:09:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('iisthatwhichiis', 'W')hile the laws of thermodynamics still apply, there is one thing that goes against entropy. Life.

This was originally thought when the entropy law was first published, but it has since been proven that in the process of collecting and organizing things, the living being will still increase the entropy of the universe through things like eating which converts chemical potential into heat. This is true for every form of life that exists. If any evidence against any of the thermodynamic laws had ever been found, the law would be disproved and would not be valid. No evidence has ever been observed which discredits them. I suggest you do some reading.

I'm not even going to go near the rest of that post
Il faut d'abord durer.
User avatar
Bedevere
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Ontario, Canada
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 01:52:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The universe is like a clock which is running down." But, the evolutionists say that the world has been building up from simpler to more complex forms over billions of years. Evidently, this view of the evolutionists is contrary to the well-established second law of thermodynamics.


Good lord, I can't believe somebody trotted out this nonsense again. :roll:

As far as human bodies are concerned, it is called non-equillibrium thermodynamics. I have covered this at length on other threads. Basically the body holds entropy at bay with a constant flow-thru of energy and matter. We are an open system. Once this flow thru ends, we die and entropy accelerates and we rot. There is no mystery here, nor a contradiction to 2nd Law.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 01:57:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('knoppix2004', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'A')nd I believe once we reach a state of maximum entropy...an event occurs to reset the earth's entropy back to minimum.


There is no such thing as "entropy". Entropy was use for "machine" not for living thing... Even French are not stupid enough to get into this. Go read the history of “entropy theory”. Scientist used this theory for machine not for organic things. If you don’t believe that, fine. Be a fool.


Knoppix,

I hate to burst your bubble, but entropy applies to every transformation of energy from one form to another. It governs every physical activity there is, organic or inorganic.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 02:12:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('knoppix2004', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')Who are you quoting?

How about a review from amazon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Fortunately for us, the laws of thermodynamics do not agree. The authors also do not seem to realize that planet with life is more ordered (has lower entropy) than pre-biotic Earth. Similarly, entropy is mighty low where billions of complicated humans (not to mention other species) interact in countless ways in a miraculous, self-perpetuating system of systems within systems. With each building erected, manatee born, or stock market founded, Earth's entropy falls.


Ah, but you see this reviewer has it backwards as I have explained in earlier threads.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', 'O')ur current world view is based upon classical, or "Newtonian mechanics" after Sir Isaac Newton and his laws of motion. This is a model of the physics of forces acting upon bodies. Classical mechanics is subdivided into statics (which models objects at rest), kinematics (which models objects in motion), and dynamics (which models subjected to forces). Classical mechanics produces very accurate results within the domain of everyday experience. It is superseded by relativistic mechanics for systems moving at large velocities near the speed of light, quantum mechanics for systems at small distance scales, and relativistic quantum field theory for systems with both properties.

Big thinkers of the time, like Rene Descartes, concluded that the world was one of mathematical precision, not confusion. The Greek view of history was deemed mathematically impossible and therefore false. The Christian world view fared little better. Newton used Descartes mathematics to describe mechanical motion. It was a world view made for machines, not people. It was a short journey from the cold, inert universe made up of pure dead matter in motion to the world of pure materialism. The answer, it was assumed, was to use the principles of mechanics to rearrange the stuff of nature in a way that best advanced the material self-interest of human beings: The more material well-being we amass, the more ordered the world must be getting. Progress, then, is the amassing or ever greater amounts of material abundance which leads to a more ordered world. Science and technology are the tools to get the job done. Reduced to its simplest abstraction, progress is seen as the process by which the "less ordered" natural world is harnessed by people to create a more ordered material environment. Second Law tells us that just the opposite is the case.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby Carmiac » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 02:30:39

In the words of MC Hawking:

Creationists always try to use the second law,
to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.
The second law is quite precise about where it applies,
only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.
The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,
so fuck the damn creationists, Doomsday get my gun!
User avatar
Carmiac
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 11:57:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '-')1 was itself once regarded as nonsensical. Negative numbers were 'invented' to solve equations such as x+2=1. Indeed, how can one 'add' something to 2 and get 1? Irrational numbers caused a crisis in Greek mathematics since they can't be written with digits in any number base system. Nonetheless x squared minus 2 = 0 requires a solution. So imaginary numbers are just an expansion of the number system to give solutions to certain kinds of equations, not necessarily 'nonsensical'.


Let's be clear on terms. Irrational numbers are, basically, numbers that cannot be expressed as a fraction. Pi is a good example, as is the square root of 2. -1 is not an irrational number; it is expressed in fractional form as -1/1. -1 is an integer.

Imaginary numbers are numbers that cannot have a value. i is a good example of this kind of number--no value can ever satisfy the square root of -1. The square root of 1 is, of course, 1, but if you multiply -1 by itself, you get 1. Nothing multiplied by itself will ever yield -1, hence, i cannot have a value. Despite this, we use it in engineering. That is the weirdness that I'm getting at.
User avatar
ashurbanipal
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: A land called Honalee
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 12:02:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') agree.
However OUR demands now FAR EXCEED the ability of the Sun to SUSTAIN US or the U.S.
We are not decreasing Entropy, look around you, every stage of technology increases the flow of Energy.


Two responses:

1) This is not really correct. If our demands exceeded the capacity of the sun to supply energy, we'd be dead right spankin' now. We would, quite literally, disintegrate in a matter of a few hours. The sun supplies such a huge amount of energy that it is supremely unlikely that we will ever exceed its capacity. Don't confuse this statement, however, with the statement that our technology can be made to harness sunlight in such a way that our lifestyle will be sustainable. I'm not saying that at all.

2) What has technology got to do with this anyway? We're talking about biology, and the capacity of amino acids to use the energy input of the sun to replicate in increasingly complex forms. Our technology is increasing local entropy, and our biology is doing the same. But the continued input of energy from the sun keeps the system going; biology and technology both use this energy in its various forms to stave off the forces of entropy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')lad YOU mentioned that because it fits in nicely with my 'CreationTemplate'.
I predict in the future a 'resetting' of the earth's entropy back to minimum.
A REVERSAL.
Thanks.


It absolutely does not. Your argument was that entropy counterdicts evolution because entropy always proceeds towards less complexity. The production of complex atoms such as those mentioned invalidates your argument. Ergo, evolution is not disproven.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Ash:1) Not all stars break down into Nebulae.
2) One should not assume that Nebuale are less complex than stars--they simply have a greater state of entropy.

Raph:I agree again.
So what is your point?


Only that, again in contradiction of your proposition about evolution, we observe processes that increase local order because of the input of new energy--in this case, gravity.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')tephen Hawking has your answer ... first he makes a 'deep'connection between quantum gravity and thermodynamics ... he goes on to say "as the universe expands, it borrows energy from the gravitational field to create more matter ...


I don't see how that's an answer at all. I mean, I understand Hawking. I don't understand your use of this idea as somehow countering my critique. It's an irrelevant point (i.e. your point is irrelevant to the one I made, which was itself highly relevant to your OP).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')t. Thomas Aquinas?

I don't know that he was a saint.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')e died in 1274.
What would he know about Thermodynamics.

Probably not much. But again, that's irrelevant. He was the originator of the argument (well, actually, I think he credits Lucretius with it), which doesn't really rely on thermodynamics at all. The argument you stated is essentially a confused form of the Cosmological argument for God; the addition of thermodynamics is window dressing that has little relevance and absolutely no importance in the structure of the argument itself.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')herefore he did not know about Time's Arrow. Do you?

Depends on what you mean. The phrase "Time's Arrow" is used to reference a number of distinct ideas within modern physics, some of them quite old, some of them the stratospheric result of complex calculation that Thomas Aquinas would not have known about. I'm not sure I understand why you would ask this question, but feel free to explain.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you are going to quote theologian/philosophers from the middle ages ashurban, your understanding of Entropy is obviously in need of a 21st century tune up.

A couple replies come to mind:

1) Eh? You quoted him, though you apparently didn't know it. I mentioned his name and urged you to finish the quote, in which he finds a compelling reason to reject your argument. I'm not sure why this opens me to this sort of criticism.

2) This is a strange thing to say anyway. Do you believe that if someone quotes a theologian or philosopher from the middle ages that they somehow magically lose their grasp on modern ideas? Some very smart and very modern philosophers, scientists, mathematicians, and biologists still find occasion to quote the pre-socratics from time to time. Do you honestly think this somehow disqualifies them from debating modern ideas?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') suggest you and everybody on this site read 'The Universe in a Nutshell' by Stephen Hawking.

I have no real desire to do so as I have a pretty good grasp of the ideas that Hawking presents therein. I keep fairly current in physics, and am aware of Hawking's work. It's worth mentioning that Hawking himself would reject your argument against evolution.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')oth of you will be interested to know Hawking introduces the concept of 'imaginary time' in the above-mentioned book.
Using negative numbers.

Um, OK. What does this have to do with proving or disproving the theory of evolution?
User avatar
ashurbanipal
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: A land called Honalee
Top

Re: ENTROPY SUPPORTS CREATIONISM

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 15 Sep 2005, 13:59:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'N')othing multiplied by itself will ever yield -1, hence, i cannot have a value.


Except for 'i' in engineering and 'j' in electronics.

Same thing except i is normally used for current.
User avatar
rogerhb
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4727
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron