[trespam]

Just so others take note: Jack has nothing to point to because it is "orthogonal." Folks: I'm not selling nirvana. Jack is selling doom and gloom. As does Aaron. But similar to the economists who tell me that oil will be back to $35 (I think we're heading into a higher price regime for ever), Jack tells me that the end-of-the-world is just around the corner.

Neither can prove it. Neither has anything approaching a model to demonstrate what they are talking about. Both use anecdotes and a smattering of "evidence" to "prove" their points.

Keep trying Jack. Keep dredging through the modern mass media to cull out every possible piece of negative information you can to "prove" your point.

[lowem]

Not quite sure what the "moderates" can do to prevent dragging half of the threads over at PO.com here into the "Hall of Flames". Hmmph.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'J')ust so others take note: Jack has nothing to point to because it is "orthogonal." Folks: I'm not selling nirvana. Jack is selling doom and gloom. As does Aaron. But similar to the economists who tell me that oil will be back to $35 (I think we're heading into a higher price regime for ever), Jack tells me that the end-of-the-world is just around the corner.

[NEOPO]

Mac, yer suggesting that no one has the answers yet you seem to have them.

Plan for the worse and hope for the best is the best advice I was given thus it is the best advice I think I can give.

By becoming self sufficient now - we are helping society deal with PO.
By conserving NOW we are the ones making a difference and I for one can prove just how efficient my group is - how efficient are you?

Hiding in the hills??? remember that when you finally realize that the hills are the safest place to be - dont want ya to feel like a hypocrit or nothing just to know that you can be wrong because the tone you take on this forum suggest that to be an impossibility.......

Tres, to quote one of my favorite bands
"if this doesnt make sense it doesnt make it lies"
What most PO people try to do is find the discrepancies and point them out.
One talking head says we have 45 years - another says 30 - some individual experts in their field of study suggest 2-10 years.

Believe the government?
they seem to be changing their tune.....
Believe the talking heads?
They also are singing a different tune lately.....
Believe the old retired experts who have spent most of their life working for oil and gas companies and are now coming out with that they believe to be the very unpopular truth?
Yeah I tend to choose whats behind door number 3 please pat...

Ok here ya f$^%$&^ go I have some inside info that may show you exactly what the "doomers" believe will happen and no its not a great revelation but it does show just how much the HEADS listen to the biggest HEAD of them all.
I will post a more extensive version on another thread as I think this info is very relevant.....

The president asked the nation to please conserve gasoline hahahah the only thing missing at the end of that statement was a drum crash!!

a major firm that I happen to have worked for in the past and now live with someone who still works for them are running their people 7 am to 7pm 7 days a week.

The latest memo to their employees went something like this:
"Gas up your vehicles at the end of every shift - we expect gas shortages"

Now - this company has over 80,000 employees nationwide and more then 60% are mobile meaning they drive 70-80% of every working day and they dont drive honda hyrbids but big bulky gas guzzling beasts!!!

This is hoarding on a large scale.
This is what the HEADS say and do.
One thing and another.

who said PO people do not know much about history....
Indeed it was the knowledge of history that drove me over the mental PO cliff!

OH YEAH its gonna be a simple depression right?
Do you know what led to the last depression?
We have so many more variables now - like a forest that stands strong until you start removing the big trees.
I lived with someone who lived through it and heard many a story about how people coped.

Now imagine this:
We (the USA) had 2 things ...2 fuckin things then that we do not have now.....

many more local farms and farm markets and people who know how to farm...
and
cheap and abundant energy....

we were indeed a kinder gentler nation back then.
People just wanted food and water and some land to grow food or a good job to get back to chasing the ever faster american dream.
My great grams sold eggs (lucky enough to have had plenty of chickens and some farming skills before SHTF) she pulled my grandpa around in a wagon with the eggs.
She didnt take money usually but flour and sugar as trade.

We will find an equilibrium this time as well - it just wont be the reality most of us could imagine at this time.

I have worked hurricane areas - I have been homeless and slept in shelters with 100's of other people as a child.
I was influenced by someone who knew what real hard times were.
Perhaps thats why I think the way I do

[weirdo27]

Well i seriously hope we dont go into such a strong depression like some like to say "will make the depression of the 30s look like fun and wonderful times"
Well if everythign does go downhill one of u here better have a extra place for me to live since i wont know how to survive on my own. Ive always had a question for some of the people that are making life long changes and gonig to the hills and making mud homes to survive what if nothing does happen in your lifetime maybe a few recessions but nothing as strong as what is suggested? Wont you feel stupid at all?

[SeasonOfPain]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('weirdo27', 'I')ve always had a question for some of the people that are making life long changes and gonig to the hills and making mud homes to survive what if nothing does happen in your lifetime maybe a few recessions but nothing as strong as what is suggested? Wont you feel stupid at all?

[weirdo27]

k thanks i wont feel stupid than, i dont think i will ever go as drastic as living in a mud home but i will be making prepares like not getting into debt, keep my expenses to a mininum and i will be buying lots of resources on being self sufficient. not sure if that will make a difference or not though.

[alexis]

Weirdo, have you ever heard about ponctuation ?
You know, these signs that make a statement understandable : " ; , . : "
It's a nightmare to read you, thanks.

[Gary]

w27 and all.....I already feel kinda' funny about my life becuase for the last 4 or 5 years I have been riding tricycles as an expression of my desire to live an authentic life in relationship to our environment. Peak oil is just one aspect of the difficulty we've brought upon ourselves by acting as though the earth is an infinite supply of easy/free resources and also an infinite sink for us to dispose of our waste in.

I ride SUVs (S.ensible U.tility V.ehicles) made by a little company in Tallahasee, florida, USA. The company is called OrganicEngines and has a wonderful website at www.organicengines.com.

I highly recommend that you, weirdo27, take some time to look over the photos of the trikes. And maybe visit velomobiling.net as well.

Here's the deal for me. The process of dealing with peak oil is much like the process of dealing with global climate change and peak water and population overshoot and other huge, overwhelming problems. I do get overwhelmed and depressed! But then I also do experience other things that are very fine.

I ride a cargo trike and also a pedicab (which also has a trailer for cargo). I ride in Minneapolis, MN, which can be very hot and muggy in the summer and very cold and windy in the winter (so far). I can carry up to 800 pounds -- more, with the trailer -- though I rarely need to do so.

Riding is a blast! I work within two or three miles of my home as a "sustainable household helper." I help people with cleaning and repairs and yardwork and gardening and petcare and have even worked as a companion for an elderly person. I try to do all my work as sustainably as possible, and always want to learn how to do my work more sustainably.

Will i save the planet? No. Will I save our species from terrible suffering? Not likely. Will I keep us from becoming extinct? Not a chance. Like a butterfly flapping its wings, though, I may have effects I'll never know about. That's fine.

I get discouraged when people are not able to assimilate even a little bit of new awareness into their lives. I am encouraged everytime a little child smiles and waves and laughs to see me ride by.

There's more to the story, which is ongoing....but that's half the fun! We have stories that we are living, and sometimes telling each other our stories and our hopes and fears and broken-heartedness and funny experiences is all we need to be nourished as people.

And the stories are not done at all. Suprise is the best element of stories, and there very well may be twists and turns that not even the most ardent doomer -- like myself -- has thought of. Some of these twists and turns may bring great peace and joy and happiness to a great many people. I like that.

-- peace! -- do not be afraid to keep asking questions, about this or about any other topics. Do not be afraid to follow your heart and mind even as the path shifts, and shift it does!

[weirdo27]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gary', 'w')27 and all.....I already feel kinda' funny about my life becuase for the last 4 or 5 years I have been riding tricycles as an expression of my desire to live an authentic life in relationship to our environment. Peak oil is just one aspect of the difficulty we've brought upon ourselves by acting as though the earth is an infinite supply of easy/free resources and also an infinite sink for us to dispose of our waste in.

I ride SUVs (S.ensible U.tility V.ehicles) made by a little company in Tallahasee, florida, USA. The company is called OrganicEngines and has a wonderful website at www.organicengines.com.

I highly recommend that you, weirdo27, take some time to look over the photos of the trikes. And maybe visit velomobiling.net as well.

Here's the deal for me. The process of dealing with peak oil is much like the process of dealing with global climate change and peak water and population overshoot and other huge, overwhelming problems. I do get overwhelmed and depressed! But then I also do experience other things that are very fine.

I ride a cargo trike and also a pedicab (which also has a trailer for cargo). I ride in Minneapolis, MN, which can be very hot and muggy in the summer and very cold and windy in the winter (so far). I can carry up to 800 pounds -- more, with the trailer -- though I rarely need to do so.

Riding is a blast! I work within two or three miles of my home as a "sustainable household helper." I help people with cleaning and repairs and yardwork and gardening and petcare and have even worked as a companion for an elderly person. I try to do all my work as sustainably as possible, and always want to learn how to do my work more sustainably.

Will i save the planet? No. Will I save our species from terrible suffering? Not likely. Will I keep us from becoming extinct? Not a chance. Like a butterfly flapping its wings, though, I may have effects I'll never know about. That's fine.

I get discouraged when people are not able to assimilate even a little bit of new awareness into their lives. I am encouraged everytime a little child smiles and waves and laughs to see me ride by.

There's more to the story, which is ongoing....but that's half the fun! We have stories that we are living, and sometimes telling each other our stories and our hopes and fears and broken-heartedness and funny experiences is all we need to be nourished as people.

And the stories are not done at all. Suprise is the best element of stories, and there very well may be twists and turns that not even the most ardent doomer -- like myself -- has thought of. Some of these twists and turns may bring great peace and joy and happiness to a great many people. I like that.

-- peace! -- do not be afraid to keep asking questions, about this or about any other topics. Do not be afraid to follow your heart and mind even as the path shifts, and shift it does!

[Gary]

Hey there, weirdo27.

It sounds like we are neighbors, linked through the wonders of miles of internet connections.

If you are interested, there is a Minneapolis Peak Oil Awareness MeetUp group that meets on the second Wednesday of each month.

So, this month we meet at 6:30 PM at the Ecopolitan at 2409 Lyndale Avenue South on Wednesday, September 14. All are welcome!

Anyone can link up to MeetUp groups at www.meetup.com. Also, the Postcarbon folks have groups starting up to educate and prepare for post-peak.

If the end of society has just begun, then we'd better create a new one.

Weirdo27, I do sometimes despair for little children when I see them smile and wave and realise what is coming. But then I realise that I cannot control outcomes, but only my contribution to the future. I realise also that there is potential for many hopeful suprises as well as catastrophes. If I choose to cut off the possibility of hopeful suprises for these kids, I am not doing them any favors. If I try to contribute to their future, I just may inspire them to see new possibilities that I cannot see.

The most important thing we can do to navigate the present and prepare for the future is to develop good reationships with others who share our hopes, fears, and concerns.

I invite you to check out the peak oil awareness group in Minneapolis. If you go to MeetUp on the web, do a search for "peak oil" or "minneapolis peak oil" and you will find us.

I encourage folks who contribute to these boards to continue to develop online community, but also to develop "boots on the ground" community where ever you are or want to be. We need to create a new society rooted in sustainable communities.

[weirdo27]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gary', 'H')ey there, weirdo27.

It sounds like we are neighbors, linked through the wonders of miles of internet connections.

If you are interested, there is a Minneapolis Peak Oil Awareness MeetUp group that meets on the second Wednesday of each month.

So, this month we meet at 6:30 PM at the Ecopolitan at 2409 Lyndale Avenue South on Wednesday, September 14. All are welcome!

Anyone can link up to MeetUp groups at www.meetup.com. Also, the Postcarbon folks have groups starting up to educate and prepare for post-peak.

If the end of society has just begun, then we'd better create a new one.

Weirdo27, I do sometimes despair for little children when I see them smile and wave and realise what is coming. But then I realise that I cannot control outcomes, but only my contribution to the future. I realise also that there is potential for many hopeful suprises as well as catastrophes. If I choose to cut off the possibility of hopeful suprises for these kids, I am not doing them any favors. If I try to contribute to their future, I just may inspire them to see new possibilities that I cannot see.

The most important thing we can do to navigate the present and prepare for the future is to develop good reationships with others who share our hopes, fears, and concerns.

I invite you to check out the peak oil awareness group in Minneapolis. If you go to MeetUp on the web, do a search for "peak oil" or "minneapolis peak oil" and you will find us.

I encourage folks who contribute to these boards to continue to develop online community, but also to develop "boots on the ground" community where ever you are or want to be. We need to create a new society rooted in sustainable communities.

[Gary]

I do intend to go to the next Minneapolis Oil Awareness MeetUp meeting.

Again, I recommend that everyone get involved in such groups to plan for the future as well as for mutual support as we go through the "bottleneck" of the next 20 years or so.

And weirdo27, I don't think we will see the end of technology. I so think we will re-invent quite a lot of technology if we are smart. We will make better use of our understanding if we learn from the experience of "peak oil." We will not be so naive about resource depletion, population overshoot, and pollution.

I don't think this is going to be easy. I do not think outcomes are assured for anyone anywhere. But if we do what we can, we are better prepared to survive if we happen to do so.

[weirdo27]

Gary i am really thinking of showing up but im not sure yet. On another topic i have no faith in goverment saving us and would put my hope more in major corporations for saving us. Especially car companies i would love to see them put huge quanties of money into a new technology for their cars and get them in a reasonable price range. Especially cause if they want to survive as a company they are going to have to start creating vehicles that dont run off oil/gas at all.

[NEOPO]

I could not sleep this night.
I realize now why
9/11/2005

Lets flow along those lines of logic for a minute please.

The Big Corp's will save us...... and how well have they faired lately?
Oil has risen in price five fold in 5 years...

The Auto's..............Ford and GM seem to be imploding.
Escaping collapse/bankruptcy and massive layoff's this year probably only because of their employee discount incentive offers.

The Airlines...... it appears the PTB.gov will be saving them not vice versa and how many times will that be now?
Ronald Reagen is probably in hell saying "Again?!".

The Retail .....Walmarts.... that fountain head of eternal capitolism from which all things retail spring.....even they are feeling the pinch....

How many widgets can they buy and ship at an already miniscule and further falling profit margin??

The Banks ......the only thing the banks did during the last depression was gobble up all the smaller banks and foreclose on american dreams.

This time around they (the fed) seem to be injecting a never ending supply of capitol into the market in the form of "mad" mortgage money which has resulted in "inflation" that we refer to as "rising property value" yet all the while raising interest rates in an effort to milk...I mean "control" inflation...... uhmmmm yeah.

Its a "great thing" if you are the cash strapped home owner and a bad thing if you are looking to buy.

BIG OIL - What role will they play in the future.
They have tons of money.
I think they have and/or ...will now.... face reality and divest.

Looks to me like we are going to go electric at all cost.

hmmm I think I should restate that like this - AT ALL COST!!!!!

Is not this scenario more frightening then the potential ramifications of PO without an alternative?

How many nuclear facilities are enough?
How much nuclear waste do you want in your backyard?
I hope thats one thing we OUTSOURCE!!!! poor 3rd world nations.....
Did someone mention peak nuclear feedstock? something about fission blah?

The environment - "lets not even go there!!" seems to be the order of the day......so sad isnt it?
It even happens to me when I ponder the so called PO "alternatives" .......I usually omit the environment factor.

As always we the consumer have the choice.
Sadly "we" seem to always flow to the lowest point - find the least common denominator or otherwise make bad self serving choices with little or no thought.....

I am starting to get this "x files/matrix" mixed with steven kings "the stand" kinda feeling again!!!!
wake up neo!!! - the rats are in the fields!!! - its time for you to fight the future!!!!!

Dont feel "stupid" as just by knowing about PO you are more aware and enlightened then the majority.
Use this knowledge which is power!!!

Motivate yourself to go to the meeting, make contacts and otherwise become more aware if possible.

Help others become more aware.

yep coffee is good!!! I will surely miss it post peak

[Dukat_Reloaded]

Ah 911 again here. I remember watching a clip of all the muslims in a middle eastern cheering and clapping their hands in the street after 911, one funny thing was I saw a kid throwing a paper plan in a brick wall and everyone clapping and cheering him on. I don't remember the USA cheering in the streets after they dropped the A-bombs on japan.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukat', 'A')h 911 again here. I remember watching a clip of all the muslims in a middle eastern cheering and clapping their hands in the street after 911, one funny thing was I saw a kid throwing a paper plan in a brick wall and everyone clapping and cheering him on. I don't remember the USA cheering in the streets after they dropped the A-bombs on japan.

[backstop]

Kochevnik -

I have to differ both with your critique of Mac Sporran's proposal :

"Stick by your govt. and they'll stick by you"

and with the open-ended nature of his proposal.

1st, precisely what anti-democratic forces need to gain power in more nations is for more people to withdraw from the democratic processes. The more who do so, the easier it is to propagate tyrranny.

2nd, sticking by a govt is no guarantee it'll stick by you unless it knows it will be held to account for its policies - the sheer strength of corrupting corporations will see to that. (The practicality of this approach of course varies between poles of say Burma and Sweden: the nearer the former a given state is, the greater the need of revolution).

3rd - Where the fair ballot is achievable, what is needed is that we start holding governments to account for their failures in fossil energy policy. Those who see this as merely utopian have of course already been disempowered by the propagandas of apathy, and so will on balance be a hindrance to this goal's achievement.

regards,

Backstop

[Gary]

Well, where ever one is in the doomerosity debate, it might be useful to figure out some idea about what we know and what we guess about. Also we need to figure out what we will try to do based on the knowledge and wisdom we can scrape together. We can plan and work the plan as best we can.

I tend to "morbid introspection" which is not helpful for me or my loved ones at all. I need some time to research and contemplete, but I also need to develop and adjust my plan.

Another aspect of each person's plan has to do with values and the basic worldview a person is developing. My own plan right now is to do all I can to live sustainably and to promote sustainability where I am -- happens to be Minneapolis, MN USA.

My plan can change. I am not worried about becoming invulnerable to catastrophe or drisis. I do want to continue to develop community and a network of people with specific skills for developing permaculture where I am, come good times or bad.

I have not got it all figured out. I know people who are developing intentional community in rural or small town areas as well as in cities.

I am not interested in people dumping all over other people's plans. I am interested in mutual support and pooling information, creative ideas, and wisdom.

Hang in there, weirdo27! I hope to see you at the Minneapolis PO awareness meeting on Wednesday -- but I'm not one to pressure people....your decisions are yours to make. just know that you are most welcome.

I appreciate reading other people's posts -- from the doomiest doomers to the glibbest of glib debunkers of gloom. Just remember that we work with probabilities, not absolute certainties. We will all be suprized!!!

[weirdo27]

Ok about the corporations saving us I didn't mean they are going to intentionally save us. I think with them trying to save themselves and stay in business they will come up with some new things.

Its a little funny though that i had these great big plans to live such a great and wonderful and happy life since this is the only life you get and i mean literally so i thought while im here i would have this wonderful life. I dont believe in a afterlife. Now im not so sure that my future will be so bright im almost scared to see what it could bring or maybe some wonderful things could happen i dont really know but im scared and worried for my future and everyone elses. Like i always say on other places, that is always assuming i make it to the future-not getting plowed over by a car, car crash, disease related death, falling down the stairs, breaking head open or anything else that could suddenly end my or anyone elses life.