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THE Cindy Sheehan Thread (merged)

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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 19:33:43

I used the word "intelligent" to include the proper use of known field production techniques which maximize the final amount of produced OIP. We happen to have quite a few smart folks here AND abroad who seem to do a better job of this than those who have had control of these resources in the past. Allowing this oil to be mismanaged and wasted is a crime for ALL the worlds people.

It's your interpretation warped by your obviously fanatical hatred of anything the US does which causes you to misconstrue such a simple statement, twisting it into some sinister plan. It's pretty amusing actually :)
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 19:39:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', ' ')Allowing this oil to be mismanaged and wasted is a crime for ALL the worlds people.


One should make a bumper sticker out of this.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 19:49:41

I know its dumb to not care, but I stick by my point-most Americans just don't care about the rest of the world. I know they should and it will come back to bite us-but its reality at the moment.

We only care about Iraq at the moment because our troops are there. As long as the oil hold out-we will happily go back to not caring or understanding anything about the rest of the world.

I wonder where we could get some more oil for our Hummers-hmmmm.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby jaws » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 20:04:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'I') used the word "intelligent" to include the proper use of known field production techniques which maximize the final amount of produced OIP. We happen to have quite a few smart folks here AND abroad who seem to do a better job of this than those who have had control of these resources in the past. Allowing this oil to be mismanaged and wasted is a crime for ALL the worlds people.
Well it's time to throw yourselves into jail because the Iraqi oil industry has only deteriorated as a result of your intelligent management of Iraq. You make another fine example of a delusional American who can't conceive of limits to American power.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 20:51:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'O')k, lets just look at charitable donations from us stingy Americans. This particular link is backed up by just about everything else I could find on the subject.

http://usinfo.state.gov/eur/Archive/200 ... 38980.html

If you divide the current population by what we gave in 2003, you come up with a per capita donation of slightly over 1,700 $. Yeah we are a nasty bunch aren't we? That doesn't even include the government figures.


Thanks for the link, but it's not very helpfull to the (OT) topic of discussion, which so far was foreign aid (official and private), not (mostly domestic) charitable donations.

I found this link with very thorough and many sided discussion of US and other foreign aid, including private sector and quality of aid, if you are really interested in the subject:

Link

Japan, not US, was the biggest donor country in raw dollars 1992-2002. Your link gives the number $16 bln official US aid, a quick google of other sources gave $35-40 bln for combined EU official aid, to add numbers on the factual claims I made before, disputing some of your claims.

But most importantly, neither US nor EU have any reason to brag about their aid but the opposite, since through various means they are robbing more than giving to developing countries.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') I do my part to help my fellow man, with my money, my time, and my own personal sacrifice. Not just in my own homeland but also abroad. I do it because it's right not because it feels good. What have you done?


Nothing to brag about.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 21:05:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'I') know its dumb to not care, but I stick by my point-most Americans just don't care about the rest of the world. I know they should and it will come back to bite us-but its reality at the moment.


Well that's nothing typical American, most people don't care what happens in the world if it is farther away than a couple of kilometres, even if we live in a so called globalized world and many of our actions here in the first world have dire consequences for people elsewhere, especially economically.

But unfortunately with invading people you take a huge responsibility for them, I think Powell made a comment like that inside the admin, he warned them that if they invaded Iraq it was theirs with all the obligations that come with that.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 21:08:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'I') used the word "intelligent" to include the proper use of known field production techniques which maximize the final amount of produced OIP. We happen to have quite a few smart folks here AND abroad who seem to do a better job of this than those who have had control of these resources in the past. Allowing this oil to be mismanaged and wasted is a crime for ALL the worlds people.


1) There are no ground for the claim that US oil companies don't have better knowhow than those based other developed countries.

2) The reason for the sorry state of Iraq's oil infrastucture were the economic sanctions that US and UK deceitfully demanded to be continued even after Iraq had disarmed the forbidden weapons. How "intelligent" was that?

3) Obviously in their unearthly intelligence the US neocon admin forgot to calculate the possibility that there would emerge resistance that would rather blow up the oil installations than allow occupiers to steel their oil. How else should the current situation be characterized if not "mismanaged", "wasted", and "crime for ALL the worlds people"?


But maybe there is silver lining to the situation, Iraq remaining mostly off-line means that the supply-demand crunch is happening few years earlier than otherwise? I don't consider that necessarily an "intelligent" goal, but perhaps an argument worth discussing.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby venky » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 00:17:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'F')igures lie and liars figure. Per Capita means nothing on the world stage. Bottom line, The United States gives more Aid of almost any kind you can come up with than anyone else on the planet. It's been this way since after World War II. I submit also that as far as charitable contributions go we are at or near the top also. Combined government and charitable contributions far outstrip anybody elses. Yeah, we could do more and I hope we do. How much of your yearly income do you contribute to world causes?

The US is in Iraq, not to build empires or prop up the "petro dollar", they are there to make sure the oil that remains is managed in an intelligent fashion, not pillaged by mindless Hitler like dictators.


It might seem to you as an American that Iraqi oil under American control as opposed to Saddam, is better for the world as whole. But to me as a non-American, its as scary as hell. The US with its force in Iraq and fleet in the Persian gulf and close ties to the Wahabi's and the rulers of other oil producing countries, now virtually controls the entire middle east. The only power outside the US orbit is Iran, a situation the administration is moving to correct. Once that happens, we have a situation in which as much as 80% of the world's remaining oil (including also perhaps the tar sands of Alberta) will be under de-facto control of the United States. Such a situation in which the US holds the plug on the economies of its rivals will create unbearable geo-political tensions and could have serious repurcussions.

I dont dislike the United States. I fear it; immensly. I fear what it will do when its way of life is challenged post peak oil.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 01:29:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'F')igures lie and liars figure. Per Capita means nothing on the world stage.

The best way to compare two countries is to look at the %of GNP they give in aid. The US gives about 0.1%. Comparing total $ given is ridiculous given that the US has the largest economy and can afford to give more.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow much aid does the United States give?
Less than 1 percent of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid. President Bush’s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.

How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?
The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world’s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.

Do Americans understand how much of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid?
No. A 2001 poll sponsored by the University of Maryland showed that most Americans think the United States spends about 24 percent of its annual budget on foreign aid—more than 24 times the actual figure.


http://cfrterrorism.org/policy/foreignaid.html
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby savethehumans » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 01:55:08

In case anyone's interested, Cindy's mom is doing better. Regaining feeling on the side of her body that had the stroke. Cindy is hoping to be back in Crawford by Wednesday.

Neat blog anecdote: some of the Camp Casey group came to the Bush ranch entrance with a letter to be given to the Prez. A Secret Service agent there said he couldn't take it. (New orders from On High, I guess.) So they put it on the ground, close to the entrance, and held it down with a rock. Then left. Last word was, the letter was still there, untouched.

If the guy wants to look like a buffoon to the world, he's doing a GREAT job of it! :P
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby venky » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 02:08:16

Regarding the charity thing, I dont care how much the US gives or does not. Not giving to charity is not a crime, I dont give much myself.

But dont go around boasting that you are the most generoust people on earth when the facts show that you are not. People are only going to laugh at you.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 04:31:01

The bottom line is that whether you like it or not the United States consistently gives more aid to foreign countries (government and private institutions) than anyone else. Twist the facts as you will, it's typically your way as liberals and neo marxists.

Dismissing the hundreds of billions of dollars we give each year to worldwide charitable organizations is what I would call ignorance. You just can't push it aside. We give because we care, why is that so hard for you US bashers to understand.

Just because our elected officals prance around like idiots doesn't mean the rest of us are a bunch of mindless neo cons worshiping Fox news and the right wing media. Get a grip.

Read Mr. Simmon's books to learn about who knows what about Oil field management.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 08:37:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'T')he bottom line is that whether you like it or not the United States consistently gives more aid to foreign countries (government and private institutions) than anyone else. Twist the facts as you will, it's typically your way as liberals and neo marxists.

Dismissing the hundreds of billions of dollars we give each year to worldwide charitable organizations is what I would call ignorance. You just can't push it aside. We give because we care, why is that so hard for you US bashers to understand.


Dear Pilot, nobody has disputed the generosity of individual Americans, on the contrary, so you can relax. "Hundreds of billions" of private donations to foreign aid is of course exaggeration, according to Adelman Americans privately gave at least $34 billion overseas in 2000 (see the link I gave above), which is a lot. That number, however, can be further analyzed, $18 billion of it is personal remittances to developing countries, ie. mostly immigrants sending money to their families back home, which hardly can be considered charitable foreign aid donations. Excluding those remittances leaves $16 billion private donations, which is still a very respectable number, surpassing that of your stingy governement.

To sum up, US people are not stingy, but US governement is stingy (and so is my own country Finland which has very poor record compared to it's neighbours). First price of generosity in every aspect however, in quantity per capita or per GNP and in quality of foreign aid goes to Norway, followed by Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Just because our elected officals prance around like idiots doesn't mean the rest of us are a bunch of mindless neo cons worshiping Fox news and the right wing media. Get a grip.


Of course not, and nobody is saying that, so relax. :)
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 13:49:41

I am ALWAYS relaxed, If I wasn't I wouldn't be here! :)
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 16:50:21

One reason that Iraq's oil production is down is because the Saddam government was pushing the oil fields too hard-especially the older Kirkuk fields. From a reservoir managment standpoint its probably a good thing that Iraq is giving a brief rest to some of its fields.

When Saddam invaded Kuwait did he do a good job of taking care of the people of Kuwait? Just wondering. When Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 I wonder if there were many Americans condeming Saddam for starting an unjust war? I wonder if Saddam ever violated his cease fire he signed in 91?

Only a few more weeks till hunting season starts around Crawford. I hope everybody is ready. Maybe they can add some meat to their diet of vegan burgers.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 17:25:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'F')igures lie and liars figure. Per Capita means nothing on the world stage. Bottom line, The United States gives more Aid of almost any kind you can come up with than anyone else on the planet. It's been this way since after World War II. I submit also that as far as charitable contributions go we are at or near the top also. Combined government and charitable contributions far outstrip anybody elses. Yeah, we could do more and I hope we do. How much of your yearly income do you contribute to world causes?

The US is in Iraq, not to build empires or prop up the "petro dollar", they are there to make sure the oil that remains is managed in an intelligent fashion, not pillaged by mindless Hitler like dictators.


It might seem to you as an American that Iraqi oil under American control as opposed to Saddam, is better for the world as whole. But to me as a non-American, its as scary as hell. The US with its force in Iraq and fleet in the Persian gulf and close ties to the Wahabi's and the rulers of other oil producing countries, now virtually controls the entire middle east. The only power outside the US orbit is Iran, a situation the administration is moving to correct. Once that happens, we have a situation in which as much as 80% of the world's remaining oil (including also perhaps the tar sands of Alberta) will be under de-facto control of the United States. Such a situation in which the US holds the plug on the economies of its rivals will create unbearable geo-political tensions and could have serious repurcussions.

I dont dislike the United States. I fear it; immensly. I fear what it will do when its way of life is challenged post peak oil.


Bingo. Exactly. If there was a different administration in power, it would still scare me, but wouldn't be so all consuming.

I have nightmares about China duking it out with the US in the tarsands.




Airline Pilot--US, in percapita terms spends more on a couple of stealth aircraft than it does on foreign aid. Face it, your govt is pretty much a mob operation that siphons off your taxes and deposits them directly into the pockets of multinationals.

Hell, they're not even really doing "American" companies any favours. These corporations are transnational and skip out on American coroporate tax by registering their corporations in foreign tax havens. Why shill for your govt? It's unpatriotic. When you support your govt, you are actually undermining the real American spirit of enterprise, and the American rule of law. That makes you kind of a traitor, by definition, doesn't it?

I blame your left wing and your right wing, for dropping the ball. The right wing was so busy obsessing about 'liberals', (a non threat if there ever was one.) they didn't see what was coming. Right wingers turned the minor annoyance of the PC movement into a huge menace, while completely ignoring the fact that people were rotting in prison and the constitution being trashed, under the new drug search and seizure laws. Those laws set the tone and paved the way for the Patriot acts today.

The limp left, busy gazing at their navals and self improvement literature, neutered themselves politically. If they managed to pull themselves out of the apolitical trance, it was to take up issues, like radical feminism and other gender issues, while ignoring the big ones--like the gutting of the constitution, and class warfare. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

So now you have the Sopranos in power, and many Americans still can't see it. Garden variety political corruption, of the past, has changed in quantity, but more importantly in quality. Unfortunately, Airline, --You're going to have to live through the results
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 17:36:59

Why not cut off all aid to all other countries, and ESPECIALLY all aid to Israel? I think we'll make far more friends that way, in fact in the case of Israel, no more financial, military, etc aid, they're a real country they can act like one and take care of themselves. I think we'd find ourselves with essentially NO enemies in the world if we did that.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby trespam » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 17:46:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('savethehumans', 'I')n case anyone's interested, Cindy's mom is doing better. Regaining feeling on the side of her body that had the stroke. Cindy is hoping to be back in Crawford by Wednesday.

Neat blog anecdote: some of the Camp Casey group came to the Bush ranch entrance with a letter to be given to the Prez. A Secret Service agent there said he couldn't take it. (New orders from On High, I guess.) So they put it on the ground, close to the entrance, and held it down with a rock. Then left. Last word was, the letter was still there, untouched.

If the guy wants to look like a buffoon to the world, he's doing a GREAT job of it! :P


This guy wrote an editorial against Cindy Sheehan. [link]. I wrote him to express my disagreement (you can write him here HJIMMY577@aol.com) and he wrote back with some very ugly comments on her, telling me I don't understand because I don't have Christ. He then forwarded me additional material he's written which calls her an idiot, and says she must be handled in a brutal way (my words, but he implied violence).

Ugly.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby engulfthemanatee » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 17:49:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'W')hy not cut off all aid to all other countries, and ESPECIALLY all aid to Israel? I think we'll make far more friends that way, in fact in the case of Israel, no more financial, military, etc aid, they're a real country they can act like one and take care of themselves. I think we'd find ourselves with essentially NO enemies in the world if we did that.


I don't know if that would help much though, as the damage is already done I think.

How much does Israel rely on American aide anyway? Could they stand on their own two feet? They did win their war of independence without America's help, didn't they? For a country the size of Jersey, they sure do impress.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 17:55:59

IF the present leadership cut off all aid of all types to Israel, it would not be believed or they'd just wait for the other foot to fall somehow, but if we got a different leadership, perhaps a whole new political party, and they got voted in and did that, yeah, I think we'd find ourselves friends with the world (except Israel of course!) instead of most of the world's enemy.

And Israel got massive inputs of US aid from the beginning, due to their lobbyists and bankers etc with power here. Time to pull it out by the root and let them stand on their own two feet.
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