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A beautiful landscape...

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:13:00

...courtesy of Ogallala(photo from Kansas).

Image

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost of the water in the aquifer is “fossil water” from the last ice age. The rivers and streams that initially fed the aquifer have long since disappeared in the geologic development of the West after the last ice age. Water now takes a long time to trickle down through the soil to recharge the aquifer, though the rate varies from region to region. Like a bank account, if more water is taken from this underground bank than is deposited into it, it could run dry. For this reason, efforts are being made to conserve the water of the Ogallala Aquifer.


This should last forever (ya right)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne conservation measure is using water more wisely so less is drawn out of the aquifer. Farmers in this region have adopted a more efficient irrigation method, central pivot irrigation. Central pivot irrigation draws water out of a single well in the center of the field


We are on borrowed time growing crops using groundwater. Sooner or later the pumps are going to stop pumping water and crops aren't going to grow. In my area, you very rarely see irrigation, but then again we usually get good rainfall in the spring/summer months.

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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby aldente » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:59:24

The picture of the circle irrigated fields in Kansas is incredible. Looks like a mathematical formula to me. There is a depressing underlaying notion on this forum of focussing on mortality only!
Yet, in a bipolar world one always has to take into consideration the other side to hold the status quo and keep the Titanic afloat somehow. We as individuals do it by default anyway, the proof is that we still breathe or are there any of us posters that stopped doing so..?)


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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:11:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', 'T')here is a depressing underlaying notion on this forum of focussing on mortality only!
Yet, in a bipolar world one always has to take into consideration the other side to hold the status quo and keep the Titanic afloat somehow. We as individuals do it by default anyway, the proof is that we still breathe or are there any of us posters that stopped doing so..?)
A most mysterious observation, albente. Reminds me of the times when I have tried to delve into German Metaphysics. Invariably I am left scratching my head and wondering earnestly what the profound intent of the writer was. And invariably I come away empty-handed. Should we focus on immortality? What is the other side of the bipolar world which will keep the Titanic afloat? I do still breath, but it does not prove to me that I can hold the status quo. Bipolar is a curious word; to me it evokes either manic-depression or the antipodes.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:16:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', 'T')here is a depressing underlaying notion on this forum of focussing on mortality only!
Yet, in a bipolar world one always has to take into consideration the other side to hold the status quo and keep the Titanic afloat somehow. We as individuals do it by default anyway, the proof is that we still breathe or are there any of us posters that stopped doing so..?)
Perhaps you mean that we are morbidly obsessed with the dire situation and should be cheerful? Good cheer and optimism as a neccessity to keep the show going?
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby aldente » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:41:24

Very well worded PMS , here we are, where do we go, where did we come from?
In my humble opinion posters on this forum all too often fall in this depressive "doom" kind of state, which I don't prefer to subscibe to. Not that I dispute the near future outcome of the overall scenario (which I am very well aware of ) but my point in this particular thread is that the bunch here is a self declared crowd of unexperienced fortune tellers that goes for the honey like the flies...

Immortality is the concept of existing for a potentially infinite or indeterminate length of time. Throughout history humans have had the desire to live forever. The most commonly conceived form of immortality involves a spiritual existence after physical death. Most people still believe in immortality of this type today. imortality


Not my wording though, since I subsribe to the solid "one lives only once" paradigm.Image
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby seldom_seen » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 04:46:25

quite a shot. who's going to start the peakwater.com website?
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 05:36:35

there have got to be things that can be grown on that land that make more sense, plants crops or grass that don't need the irrigation. Let the buffalo have that area again and harvest them sustainably, or grow dry crops like mesquite and jojoba and so on, something. Use the fossil water for people to drink, at a rate equal or less than it's being put into the aquafer.

Killing off the buffalo was a major fuckup.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 09:51:54

I agree strongly with the Buffalo fuck up. I still remember watching a PBS program on the how the trains would travel down the tracks full of gun toting retards firing away at buffalo...letting them lay to rot.

I'm a plant loving person (people say i'm obsessed) and this is eye candy porn for me. I just think that the use of groundwater is wasteful and inefficient.

Its too bad that somehow the flood waters of the Mississippi (almost every spring) couldn't be diverted west??
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby aldente » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 17:34:58

Sorry for my previous off-topic excursion. The Ogallala aquifer is indeed gigantic and yet will be exhausted in less than 20 years from now. Lester Brown brings attention to this problem in his book "Plan B". At the same token he mentions Chinas overpumping problems, Pakistan, Yemen...
It is just another one of those pieces in the puzzle that is now comming together as a larger picture and it is not a pretty one.

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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby gnm » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 17:41:19

What is the data that shows it will be out in 20 years?

-G
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby seldom_seen » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 18:12:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'I') still remember watching a PBS program on the how the trains would travel down the tracks full of gun toting retards firing away at buffalo...letting them lay to rot.

The amount of wildlife that used to exist in north america is truly astonishing.
Those of us alive now in the 21st century just don't have a clue of what we've lost.

There are common stories from the 1800s of mirgratory birds literally blacking out the sky by their shear numbers.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby holmes » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 18:14:20

http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/WORMKA/

yes the ogllalla on borrowed time. studies have been done for years now.
Great migrations are in store for the US. cascading ecological failures. killing the buffalo was a pathetic greedy empty headed white man plan. failed. and the folks out in the "heartland" have failed. their dream never materialized. they are moving out now as well.
we will have to deal with the failure of the whity wasps.

My heart was buried at wounded knee long ago. now it is full of rage and love and pessimism. sadly.

the native grasses on the plains were harvested by the indians for over 6000 years. a few farmers are learning to hybridize them for ag. They have long roots with high nutrient content. drout tolerant and should have been used long ago. but remember our country was founded on a manifest destiny principle. profit, religion BS and greed over all else.

killing the buffalo. It will always break my heart. I would have loved to be part of a hunting agrarian tribal society feasting off the bounty provided to us. Killing buffalo with my bow. respecting nature and taking what was needed. pure freedom. now we must pay 2000 dollars + to blow away a buffalo within a fence or small preserve.

our (humans that is, not humanoids) future has been stolen. all our rivers are fucked as well. get used to it. just please repeat after me, "fuck em all". middle finger up while u say it. dissent please. cmon.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby holmes » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 18:25:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'I') still remember watching a PBS program on the how the trains would travel down the tracks full of gun toting retards firing away at buffalo...letting them lay to rot.

The amount of wildlife that used to exist in north america is truly astonishing.
Those of us alive now in the 21st century just don't have a clue of what we've lost.

There are common stories from the 1800s of mirgratory birds literally blacking out the sky by their shear numbers.


absolutely.
My uncle has books of whities living with the indians(autobiographies) back inthe 1850's and 60's. it was a game preserve on crack. all you can eat. and the indians used it for over 40000 years. we blew through it like parasitic scum in under 200. any one yapping about how great whity is needs to be shot with a bufflao rifle. Hey thanks for mega mart shit food, wasp forefathers. thank for nuthin. respect our forefathers dammit. yeah right. eat buffalo chips. :lol:
I love the buffalo. them and my brothers the birds of prey. out in the southern unit of badlands nP, tr roosevelt NP and wind cave/custer NF Ive done some crazy stuff with the buffalo camping out on whats left of the grasslands. Came close to getting crushed by one once.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby Specop_007 » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 23:42:56

What scares me is the amount of water those wells pump. Its friggin crazy.

Even more interesting, it seems anytime theres "hard times" in the ag community (When isnt there) the irrigators are the first to suffer. In other words, they spend so damned much money to pump water to grow the crops they end up no better off then just going dryland!
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby aldente » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 00:06:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'W')hat is the data that shows it will be out in 20 years?
-G

I picked up that information in this book:

Image

Lester Brown is running this office in Washington DC. focussing on matters likewise similar to those that we discuss here. Half of the book is dedicated to possible solutions to the problem. I stopped reading after the first half - the evaluation of the problems that we are facing...
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby zed » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 01:53:39

I found it interesting that the Salmon River in Idaho used to have (circa 1860s) so many salmon that people could easily fill a whole barrel in an afternoon. Basically there were so many fish they practically took over the river. Due to overfishing and downstream dams, now there are hardly any that make it that far upstream to spawn :( Like the buffalo, another example of an amazingly abundant resource completely destroyed in a short period of time.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby medicvet » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 21:48:42

The loss of buffalo was a great one. Although they still exist in preserves and buffalo meat is still sold, their vast herds are gone. As someone with a CDIB card and under a certain income I do get 'Indian Commodities', including a few times a year, a few pounds of ground buffalo or a few cans of Bison stew.. I can only imagine what it was like during the day when ALL of the buffalo was used...and the day when, as it has been mentioned, they were shamelessly killed for the sheer sport of it and left rotting in the fields. Native Americans used every bit of the Buffalo that was killed; nothing went to waste. This is happening again....but far too late for the thundering herds to be able to again roll across the plains, and that is sad.

Will water end up being as scarce as oil doubtless will be, in a way that would cause many to die not only of hunger but of thirst? Only time will tell.

And those vast flocks of birds that would darken the sky? They belonged to the passenger pigeon..and they are extinct.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.-H.G. Wells

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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby holmes » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 23:19:07

Fragmention of habitat. The wildlife is having harder and harder time spreading genomes through migration. The mixing of the gene pools is important. However areas that humans are leaving in the great plains nature is reclaiming. the buffalo are coming back.
the problem is that with overpopulation and peak oil and when raising oil dependent mass produced food gets expensive and economy goes. every one will be out "hunting" and killing off everything. I foresee battles over game. the outoors is already overcrowed and fighting over areas is going on. so all the conservation and phantom successes will fall by the wayside. very illussionary. the Game numbers compared to just the #of hunters applying for a tag is like some crazy ratio. check out your own state. and compared to TOTAL human population forget it. colorado is like 50:1(applied for tag not total )
I think even higher. well losing 2.2 MILLION acres a year in the us its only logical that wildlife will die off and many extinctions.


but yeah outside the islands man its monoculture and not much life and diversity. the prairie potholes are either poisoined or drained. some farmers live in harmony with ma nature. small percentage now.
and the desertification is speeding up with idustrialized byproduct chemicals and particles filling up the atmosphere attaching to H2O molecules dropping onto the land and cycling throught the biome.
not a good mix. the grasslands were a major cog in the climate stabilizer for the US and globe. Tall grass prairie is like gone. That was a big cog. dried that out. man that area now is generally one big shithole. the ohio river valley. I reccomend everyone to take a ride through there and then say thank you to your lights. Its called death valley. and it spreads it. adirndacks the largest contiguous wilderness area inthe US is dieing. every year big chunks die. I sure wish we would use thermal mass earthship structures. get off the grid. turn off your lights? please use them when u need them:? :-D .we will be africa. we went through fast. we are overindustrialized. africa never was.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby eric_b » Sun 21 Aug 2005, 03:47:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'I') still remember watching a PBS program on the how the trains would travel down the tracks full of gun toting retards firing away at buffalo...letting them lay to rot.

The amount of wildlife that used to exist in north america is truly astonishing.

Those of us alive now in the 21st century just don't have a clue of what we've lost.

There are common stories from the 1800s of mirgratory birds literally blacking out the sky by their shear numbers.


Yes, what was lost.

In the dark and graceless age we're now living in, let's consider
for a moment the tremendous resources, both natural and mineral, that
once covered North America.

A land rich in oil, coal and natural gas. Mineral wealth beyond
reckoning. And, at one time, a natural bounty of life that would be
hard for most people alive today to even imagine

And many of these gifts were unique, finite, and exhaustible. Like
the rich prairie soil and Ogallala aquifer, now being exhausted.

from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')When European settlers landed on our shores they saw what appeared to
be a never-ending forest stretching to the west. That vast forest
expanse was not all old-growth. Wind, fire and insects along with
burning by Native Americans created a patchwork of young and old
forests. However, large tracts of old-growth forests dominated many
of the forested regions.


from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Lewis wrote near the White River in South Dakota on September 17, 1804,
"was still farther hightened by immence herds of buffaloe, deer elk
and antelopes which we saw in every direction feeding on the hills
and plains...


Let's take a brief look at the devastion of North American fisheries,
wetlands and aquatic habitats

from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Since 1920 over 120 N American freshwater species have gone extinct
(5x higher than terrestrial)... and an estimate 4% per decade in the
coming years (2000 on).



And how about those Salmon? Wow, you've really got to work hard to
kill off a fish as robust and vibrant as Salmon, but we've done
just that. In the Pacific Northwest, 106 Salmon stock are now extinct.
Of what used to amount to over 10 million fish every year, which made
the journey hundreds of miles inland to spawn, only a fraction remains.
The Atlantic Salmon now hangs on the verge of extinction.

The damming of the Columbia river for hydroelectricity greatly
accelerated the demise of the salmon population.

from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')If salmon could climb one dam, the need to climb 10 proved daunting.
They were blenderized by dam turbines, preyed on by slack-water bottom
fish, poisoned by nitrogen injected by dam spillways, over-harvested
by feuding fish agencies, genetically weakened by hatchery stocks and
left flopping in farm fields. Idaho's Redfish Lake, so named for the
color of sockeye salmon that once spawned by the tens of thousands
along its shores, was by the 1990s down to a few fish per year, at
best.


More grist for the Borg.

And the rampant and unsustainable fishing of the worlds oceans.

From '_A Short History of Nearly Everything_', by Bill Bryson
(A great read - I highly recommend this book for those with an interest
in the Sciences and history)

pages 284-285:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')As of 1995, some 37,000 industrial-sized fishing ships, plus about a
million smaller boats, were between them taking twice as many fish
from the sea as they had just twenty-five years earlier. Trawlers
are sometimes now as big as cruise ships and haul behind them nets
big enough to hold a dozen jumbo jets. Some even use spotter planes
to locate shoals of fish from the air

Large areas of the North sea floor are dragged clean by beam trawlers
as many of seven times a year, a degree of disturbance that no
ecosystem can withstand. At least two-thirds of species in the North
Sea, by many estimates, are being overfished. Across the Atlantic
things are no better. Halibut once abounded in such numbers off New
England that individual boats could land twenty thousand pounds of
it in a day. Now Halibut is all but extinct off the northeast coast
of North America

Nothing, however, compares with the fate of cod. In the late fifteenth
century, the explorer John Cabot found cod in such incredible numbers
on the eastern banks of North America - shallow areas of water popular
with bottom-feeding fish like cod. Some of these banks were vast.
George Banks off Massachusetts is bigger than the state it abuts. The
Grand Banks off Newfoundland is bigger still and for centuries was
always dense with cod. They were thought to be inexhaustible. Of
course they were anything but.

By 1960, the number of spawning cod in the north Atlantic had fallen
to an estimated 1.6 million metric tons. By 1990 this had sunk to
22,000 metric tons. In commercial terms, cod were extinct. "Fisherman,"
wrote Mark Kurlansky in his fascinating history, _Cod_, "had
caught them all." The cod may have lost the western Atlantic forever.
In 1992, cod fishing was stopped altogether on the Grand Banks, but
as of last Autumn, according to a report in Nature, stocks had not
staged a comeback. Kurlansky notes that the fish or fish pellets and
fish sticks was originally cod, but then was replaced by haddock,
then by redfish, and lately by Pacific pollock. These days, he notes
drily, "fish" is "whatever is left".

Much the same can be said of many other seafoods. In the New England
fisheries off Rhode Island, it was once routine to haul in lobsters
weighing twenty pounds. Sometimes they reached thirty pounds. Left
unmolested, lobsters can live for decades - as much as seventy years,
it is thought - and they never stop growing. Nowadays few lobsters
weigh more than two pounds on capture.

...
Today fisherman of Massachusetts are reduced to fishing the hideous
hagfish, for which there is a slight market in the Far East, but
even their numbers are now falling


And then there's the fate of Shad, swordfish...

Just off the top of my head I can think of many freshwater water
species that are in decline if not outright extinct. Both the
black fin (jumbo herring) and the blue pike were once common in the
great lakes - both are now thought to be extinct due to overfishing
and pollution.

And the fate of frogs and toads, now in decline everywhere. When I
was a child, no more than 20 years ago, toads used to be common
in these parts. They've all but vanished at this point.

The great lakes were once a pristine watershed, with water so clear
in places one could see down many meters in calm water. When I was a
kid the highlight of my Summer was the family vacation to the bay
of islands in Northen lake Huron (north of the Manitoulin Island).
A glittering elemental freshwater archipelago of glacier smoothed
lichen encrusted rocks shot though with quartz and windswept gnarled
pine trees. A beautiful spot that hinted of the awesome beauty this
entire area once boasted. (My step grandfather, for a time, owned a small rocky
island in this area.)

The water was so clean we got our drinking water straight from the
lake (though is didn't taste so good), and there were so many
fish that one that one never had to go hungry. I've happy memories
of exploring this area by canoe, rowboat, and motorcraft.

The US East of the Mississippi has already been plundered of most of
the game and wildlife the used to flourish in this area.

Focusing on the state of Wisconsin (where I live - though the same
applies for all areas East of the Mississippi)

from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Wisconsin has historically been rich in wildlife resources. Wisconsin's
earliest European explorers recorded a great abundance and variety
of wildlife in the forests, wetlands and grasslands of the state. From
1700-1800, the prairies and savannas of southern Wisconsin teemed with
elk, bison, wolves, cougars and white-tailed deer. The mixed conifer
hardwoods in northern Wisconsin provided habitat for American (pine)
marten, moose, deer and small populations of woodland caribou. The
state's central forests were home to millions of passenger pigeons -
populations so dense people reported that the birds literally "blocked
the sun from the sky" during migration

...

No one saw a need to impose bag limits because the wildlife populations
appeared so limitless. Not surprisingly, it wasn't long before
unregulated trapping of marten, fisher and wolverine lead to their
extirpation from the state by the early 1900s. Beaver and other
furbearer populations were also drastically reduced and were nearly
eliminated from the state by 1900. Market hunting caused the seemingly
endless flocks of waterfowl to plummet; the widespread destruction
of the passenger pigeon nests by market hunters interested in shipping
barrels of squab to eastern markets spelled DOOM for this native bird.


Wisconsin was once nearly covered with mighty forests. The Northern
third of the state had virgin pine forest with immense trees hundreds
of years old, the size of small redwoods. Other parts of the state
were covered with dense stands of hardwood, including Oak, Hickory,
and the once ubiquitous, now tragically extinct, American Chestnut
(killed off my an invader fungus from China).

From link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')What once seemed like an endless barrier and timber resource all but
vanished in less than a human lifetime. The resulting landscape was
in stark contrast to what those first settlers, land surveyors and
lumberjacks saw. People could see for miles where once they could
barely see the sun. What was once mostly old-growth pine or mixed
hardwood forest in northern and central Wisconsin was replaced with
brush.


In fact, the orgy of logging in Wisconsin was so extreme, that at this
point not on bit, piece, or snippet of this old growth forest remains.
However, in neighboring Minnesota, a stand of old growth forest did
miraculously survive, due to a surveying error.

From link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')THERE'S A WOODS NORTH OF GRAND RAPIDS called the Lost Forty. In an age
when policy makers argue about whether a tree is "old growth" at 90
years or 120, the Lost Forty is the real thing. It's never been cut.
Some of these white pines are 400 years old. In the 1830s, 3.5 million
acres of Minnesota forest were dominated by such pines. But the Lost
Forty, says forester Chuck Wingard, is still here only because of a
mistake.

Wingard: There was a surveying error in the area we're looking at - it
was shown as part of Cottington Lake. And since it showed in the survey
records as lake, nobody could buy it. And if they couldn't buy it,
they couldn't cut the timber from it, so it's here for us to see today.
Traditionally we measure 'em four-and-a-half feet from the ground, so
that's about here - okay, our diameter on this one is 39.6 inches.
Circumference is about 10.9 feet. We're probably looking at about
2,000 board feet in a tree that size.


From link
Recollections of Old Superior, Achille H. Bertrand

Reminiscing on the lake Superior area, ~1870:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In an attempt to draw the picture of the keenest imagination might
end in failure. Nature's undefiled shore lines of those days are
now buried more effectually under the structures of a great country's
commerce than are the tombs of Egypt under the sifting sands of the
Sahara...

We now devote our aesthetic moods to the contemplation of modern
commerical leviathans bringing in coal and taking out grain and ore.
In the background of all this were primeval forests- fragrant northern
woods that densely convered every space of ground to the water's
edge, and spread their cooling shadows over the numerous streams and
brooks and beds of green moss...

...the entire point abounded in wild roses and other flowers,
wintergreen, strawberries, blueberries, thorn apples, and pigeon

berries...


Yes, much has been lost - forever.

Out West, things fared a little better. The Western US was settled
last, and the moutainous terrain preserved isolated wild areas better.
Also, attitudes in the US were changing more towards conservation,
so many parks and preserves were created. Still, much of the West
has been decimated at this point.

from link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The beginning of America's concern about the conservation of land for
the people can be traced back to George Perkins Marsh, who in 1864
wrote the book, "Man and Nature: Or Physical Geography as Modified
by Human Action." This influential book drew on the past to illustrate
how human actions had harmed the Earth - leading to the demise of
earlier civilizations. Marsh wanted not only to warn his contemporaries
against this fate, but also to initiate actions to prevent it. One
measure that Marsh advocated was the protection of forests-yet few
heeded his important message.

...

Several landscape photographers of the era -- Timothy H. O'Sullivan,
William Henry Jackson, and Carlton E. Watkins -- were also important
in generating concern about the marvelous and unusual features of the
unpopulated West. The impressive images they produced informed
Americans of the stark beauty and impressive majesty that abounded in
the western mountains and valleys. These elements came together to
protect the Yellowstone area in northwest Wyoming...


The above barely touches on the immensity of the loss.
Last edited by eric_b on Sun 21 Aug 2005, 04:34:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A beautiful landscape...

Unread postby Specop_007 » Sun 21 Aug 2005, 04:27:58

Eric,
Your just a ball of joy..... :cry:

And people think PO will be a bad thing. Hardly I say.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
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