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Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Yes
16
No votes
No
37
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Total votes : 53

Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:30:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')I read his text carefully. He puts the nuclear elimination of nuclear centers, in the same footing as "euthanasia" and the capital punishment i.e. measures to decrease the population through governmental action.


No he doesn't. Here is the entire text where he mentions anything about nuclear.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n Third World nations, without oil, that can neither buy food nor grow it in adequate quantity without mechanised agriculture, a Darwinian struggle for shrinking resources of all kinds will be in full swing. Tribe against tribe, religion against religion, family against family, the imperative to survive will be driving strong groups to take what they want from weak ones. The concept of human rights will be irrelevant: “How can the weak have rights to food, when there is not enough even for the strong”?

It may well be that, in the West, the same argument will affect the thinking of militarily powerful nations. “If billions must die, and we have the technology to ensure that they are others, not us, why should we hold back”? Instantaneous nuclear elimination of population centres might even be considered merciful, compared to starvation and massacres prolonged over decades.


He is merely painting a picture of a possible cause and effect. He is observing the possible mindsets that might emerge as a result of the competition for resources.

This is what he believes they will do unless the population is reduced. Read the article again. He writes this long before any proposal of any scenario involving euthanasia or anything else.

Nowhere, in any of his scenario does he mention nuclear war as a option for population reduction.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:34:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')May I ask you a question: you want to advance a sustainable life on earth, under the carrying capacity. But carrying capacity is represented in numbers and is examined within the confines of a quantitative reasoning program. Don't you think that the calculations have to be correct? IF they are not, and in spite of the obvious errors they are being repeated what conclusions should I reach? Either that the guys do not know what they are talking about OR they have an agenda that used (instead of caring) about the numbers. The latter are simply a smokescreen. Wouldn't you agree with that?


Well, I guess I look at the Big Picture in a different light.

Only a blind fool would need any numbers to see that the earth is in overshoot. We know the population has to do down, not up. And since we are over by billions, the hard numbers aren't even relevant until such time as we approach sustainablity.


But monte your initial post was about an estimate of the carrying capacity based on material energy calculations that other people did. Aren;t you contradicting yourself when you start a thread listing a set of numbers and then writing that hard numbers aren't even relevant. This is the same kind of argument that cornocupians use ... you differ in the direaction of action though. I have to disagree with you that numbers are irrelevant, if you consider them not to be then how is this different from the position of a Catholic priest asking people to over-breed?
An honest response would be to say that you/I/Erlich/Stanton/Lynch do not know anything about the numbers and it would be prudent to reduce our footprint on earth in order to provide a safety margin. But in such a case you cannot give a rate of reduction , and hence design a policy only provide very general guidelines. Since there will not be a hard target, and since in the end we are all dead (I never forget that,) people would rather NOT see widespread mandatory euthanasia programs and go with the one child per woman policy.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:39:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')I read his text carefully. He puts the nuclear elimination of nuclear centers, in the same footing as "euthanasia" and the capital punishment i.e. measures to decrease the population through governmental action.


No he doesn't. Here is the entire text where he mentions anything about nuclear.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n Third World nations, without oil, that can neither buy food nor grow it in adequate quantity without mechanised agriculture, a Darwinian struggle for shrinking resources of all kinds will be in full swing. Tribe against tribe, religion against religion, family against family, the imperative to survive will be driving strong groups to take what they want from weak ones. The concept of human rights will be irrelevant: “How can the weak have rights to food, when there is not enough even for the strong”?

It may well be that, in the West, the same argument will affect the thinking of militarily powerful nations. “If billions must die, and we have the technology to ensure that they are others, not us, why should we hold back”? Instantaneous nuclear elimination of population centres might even be considered merciful, compared to starvation and massacres prolonged over decades.


He is merely painting a picture of a possible cause and effect. He is observing the possible mindsets that might emerge as a result of the competition for resources.

This is what he believes they will do unless the population is reduced. Read the article again. He writes this long before any proposal of any scenario involving euthanasia or anything else.

Nowhere, in any of his scenario does he mention nuclear war as a option for population reduction.

I wrote it again and again and again. People do differ in their intepretation of texts/passages. You keep isolating the passage and trying to convince me that I read it wrong. Sorry it will not do. I made it quite clear why I think he is advocating nuclear war as a supplement to other population reduction methods. Read my thread please and to make it simple for you follow the argument now for a change:
MILLIONS WILL DIE
IF MILLIONS WILL DIE, WHY SHOULD IT BE US
WE HAVE METHODS TO MAKE MILLIONS DIE INSTANTENOUSLY
ergo
USE NUCLEAR WAR TO MAKE OTHERS DIE INSTEAD OF US
I do not want to sound pedantic but when interpreting a passage one relies both on the succession of arguments expressed by sentences AND an overall tone/gestalt of the text.
The overall "message" of his text is that governments should enforce the population reduction within societies and among societies. Nuclear war is given the same status with euthanasia, capital punishment etc.
Last edited by EnergySpin on Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:47:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:45:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'O')nly a blind fool would need any numbers to see that the earth is in overshoot. We know the population has to do down, not up. And since we are over by billions, the hard numbers aren't even relevant until such time as we approach sustainablity.


No, I disagree. We need those numbers. And even if we agree that the Earth is in overshoot, we do not agree on what "overshoot" implies.

I do not agree that the population has to go down, soon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'I') advocate approximately 50 years to net decline. This is consistent with scenario 9 of Limits to Growth: The 30-Year Update, in which population plateaus at approximately 8 billion and begins to decline in the second half of the 21st century.


Ok, but you have to look at what Meadows and company expect to happen to be able to sustain those numbers. They also state that not one thing that they said needed to take place in the the 1972 Limits to Growth had even been started.

There is not any evidence that the things they say must take place that are required to sustain 8 billion in the 30 yr update have even been started or even considered.

The majority of demographers that look at what can be sustained at this current mindset is about 2 to 3 billion. We are twice that and heading for thrice that.

Overshoot tells you, not implies, that you have exceeded the carrying capacity of your environment and that growth continues even in the face of declining resources. There is no dispute amongst the scientific community on that point.

Place your bets. 8)
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 13:56:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')I read his text carefully. He puts the nuclear elimination of nuclear centers, in the same footing as "euthanasia" and the capital punishment i.e. measures to decrease the population through governmental action.


No he doesn't. Here is the entire text where he mentions anything about nuclear.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n Third World nations, without oil, that can neither buy food nor grow it in adequate quantity without mechanised agriculture, a Darwinian struggle for shrinking resources of all kinds will be in full swing. Tribe against tribe, religion against religion, family against family, the imperative to survive will be driving strong groups to take what they want from weak ones. The concept of human rights will be irrelevant: “How can the weak have rights to food, when there is not enough even for the strong”?

It may well be that, in the West, the same argument will affect the thinking of militarily powerful nations. “If billions must die, and we have the technology to ensure that they are others, not us, why should we hold back”? Instantaneous nuclear elimination of population centres might even be considered merciful, compared to starvation and massacres prolonged over decades.


He is merely painting a picture of a possible cause and effect. He is observing the possible mindsets that might emerge as a result of the competition for resources.

This is what he believes they will do unless the population is reduced. Read the article again. He writes this long before any proposal of any scenario involving euthanasia or anything else.

Nowhere, in any of his scenario does he mention nuclear war as a option for population reduction.

I wrote it again and again and again. People do differ in their intepretation of texts/passages. You keep isolating the passage and trying to convince me that I read it wrong. Sorry it will not do. I made it quite clear why I think he is advocating nuclear war as a supplement to other population reduction methods. Read my thread please and to make it simple for you follow the argument now for a change:
MILLIONS WILL DIE
IF MILLIONS WILL DIE, WHY SHOULD IT BE US
WE HAVE METHODS TO MAKE MILLIONS DIE INSTANTENOUSLY
ergo
USE NUCLEAR WAR TO MAKE OTHERS DIE INSTEAD OF US
I do not want to sound pedantic but when interpreting a passage one relies both on the succession of arguments expressed by sentences AND an overall tone/gestalt of the text.
The overall "message" of his text is that governments should enforce the population reduction within societies and among societies. Nuclear war is given the same status with euthanasia, capital punishment etc.



This demonstrates a fault in interpretation which I've seen over and over on this board. The fault in interpreting what someone believes may happen based on the evidence with what they want to happen. No, this is faulty interpretation and illogical thinking.

"If - then" is not an endorsement of "then" - it is merely an observation or prognostication.

If this is the way most people think - that making predictions based on evidence is the same as endorsing those predictions, gods help us all!
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:03:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I') wrote it again and again and again. People do differ in their intepretation of texts/passages. You keep isolating the passage and trying to convince me that I read it wrong. Sorry it will not do.


Then I won't isolate it.

Reducing Population in step with Oil Depletion

Recent articles in the ASPO Newsletter have agreed that the explosion of world population from about 0.6 billion in 1750 to 6.4 billion today was initiated and sustained by the shift from renewable energy to fossil fuel energy in the Industrial Revolution. There is agreement that the progressive exhaustion of fossil fuel reserves will reverse the process, though there is uncertainty as to what a sustainable global population would be.

In this time of energy abundance, and the complacency it engenders, the vast majority of the general public assumes that what the future holds is “more of the same”. They argue, if pushed, that the expertise inherited by post-fossil-fuel scientists and engineers will allow a smooth transition into a new kind of energy-rich world in which renewable generators will produce as much energy as fossil fuels do now. Such a view is untenable because it ignores the fact that almost all materials essential to modern civilization will be orders of magnitude more costly, and scarce, when they have to be produced using renewable energy instead of fossil fuels.

In 2150, for example, a wind turbine constructed of steel, concrete and plastic may not be able to generate, during its lifetime, as much renewable energy as would have been used up in creating it. Imagine mining, refining and smelting the metal ores, quarrying and transporting the rock, growing the biomass; fabricating the component parts, and erecting and maintaining the structure, using only the trickle of electricity produced by another similar turbine. Vast engineering projects such as constructing the first Airbus A380 airliner (Bowie 2005), using only renewable energy from start to finish, would be unthinkable (to say nothing of flying the plane without oil!).

If, in this article, I discuss ways in which a global population reduction of some 6 billion people is likely to take place during the 21st Century, precedent suggests that nearly everyone will ignore me. “He must be mad”, media reviewers concluded when they read my first probes into the subject two years ago and effectively blacklisted the book (Stanton 2003). After all, do the world’s leading politicians and their scientific advisers, including highly paid demographers working for the United Nations and other international bodies, ever doubt that economic “business as usual” will continue for the foreseeable future?

But, given that ASPO is successfully challenging conventional wisdom on oil depletion (there were four anxious letters on the subject of peak oil in my local weekly newspaper in May), what are the options?

The first and most likely scenario is rejection. People in high places view an alleged need for population reduction with incredulity, scorn and denial. In consequence, the price of fossil fuels, especially oil, goes on rising without causing serious alarm in the West, except perhaps in the business world.

When, probably before 2010, the price is so high that construction of new airliners, airport terminals, Olympic villages and traffic reduction schemes judders to a halt, uncontrollable inflation and recession will spread round the world. The oil price may stabilise for a while, as manufacturing wilts, along with demand for its products.

Here is where he speaks of nuclear, nowhere else.

In Third World nations, without oil, that can neither buy food nor grow it in adequate quantity without mechanised agriculture, a Darwinian struggle for shrinking resources of all kinds will be in full swing. Tribe against tribe, religion against religion, family against family, the imperative to survive will be driving strong groups to take what they want from weak ones. The concept of human rights will be irrelevant: “How can the weak have rights to food, when there is not enough even for the strong”?

It may well be that, in the West, the same argument will affect the thinking of militarily powerful nations. “If billions must die, and we have the technology to ensure that they are others, not us, why should we hold back”? Instantaneous nuclear elimination of population centres might even be considered merciful, compared to starvation and massacres prolonged over decades. Eventually, probably before 2150, world population will have fallen to a level that renewable energy, mainly biomass, can sustain. It is likely to be similar to the population before the Industrial Revolution.


That is the do-nothing, let Nature take its course, scenario, involving more than a century of immeasurable human suffering. What alternatives are there? They have to be scenarios in which enlightened governments and their peoples, with astonishing foresight and determination, take positive action to reverse population growth by new, Draconian, laws. China has pioneered such an approach, by its one child per family policy.

ASPO’s Oil Depletion Protocol (Campbell 2004) is a scenario that aims to persuade national governments to cope with declining oil production equitably and peacefully, on the world scale. An annual depletion rate (the percentage of remaining global oil reserves produced each year, currently about 2.5% per year) is calculated by experts, after which nations agree to reduce their consumption and/or production of oil year after year strictly in accordance with the depletion rate. How population reduction will be achieved in step with growing oil shortage is not spelt out. Some will see the Protocol as too idealistic for a Darwinian world, because it expects every nation to co-operate regardless of whether they are resource rich or poor, have a high or a low birth rate, or are responsibly or chaotically governed.

Probably the greatest obstacle to the scenario with the best chance of success (in my opinion) is the Western world’s unintelligent devotion to political correctness, human rights and the sanctity of human life. In the Darwinian world that preceded and will follow the fossil fuel era, these concepts were and will be meaningless. Survival in a Darwinian resource-poor world depends on the ruthless elimination of rivals, not the acquisition of moral kudos by cherishing them when they are weak. In fact, human civilization in the fossil fuel era has been totally anomalous, fuelled by the unthinking exploitation and exhaustion of all the world’s resources, not just fossil fuels. Sir Fred Hoyle pointed out, decades ago, that Western civilization was a “one-shot affair”, for this reason (Duncan 1997).

So the population reduction scenario with the best chance of success has to be Darwinian in all its aspects, with none of the sentimentality that shrouded the second half of the 20th Century in a dense fog of political correctness (Stanton 2003 page 193). It is best examined at the nation-state scale. The United Kingdom will serve as the model.

To those sentimentalists who cannot understand the need to reduce UK population from 60 million to about 2 million over 150 years, and who are outraged at the proposed replacement of human rights by cold logic, I would say “You have had your day, in which your woolly thinking has messed up not just the Western world but the whole planet, which could, if Homo sapiens had been truly intelligent, have supported a small population enjoying a wonderful quality of life almost for ever. You have thrown away that opportunity.”

The Darwinian approach, in this planned population reduction scenario, is to maximise the well-being of the UK as a nation-state. Individual citizens, and aliens, must expect to be seriously inconvenienced by the single-minded drive to reduce population ahead of resource shortage. The consolation is that the alternative, letting Nature take its course, would be so much worse.

Here is where his scenario starts. NO mention of nuclear war.

The scenario is: Immigration is banned. Unauthorised arrives are treated as criminals. Every woman is entitled to raise one healthy child. No religious or cultural exceptions can be made, but entitlements can be traded. Abortion or infanticide is compulsory if the fetus or baby proves to be handicapped (Darwinian selection weeds out the unfit). When, through old age, accident or disease, an individual becomes more of a burden than a benefit to society, his or her life is humanely ended. Voluntary euthanasia is legal and made easy. Imprisonment is rare, replaced by corporal punishment for lesser offences and painless capital punishment for greater.

A rough calculation suggests that by following these Draconian but simple rules UK population could be reduced by 5 to 10 million during the first ten years, without excessive pain (compared to the alternatives). If this was thought too fast or too slow, there would be scope for modifying the child entitlements. The punishment regime would improve social cohesiveness by weeding out criminal elements.

UK military forces should be maintained strong and alert, given that other nations working to different scenarios, or to none, would certainly attempt Darwinian piracy on UK trade routes, or mount mass immigration invasions of UK coasts. Collaboration with other nations practising the same population reduction scenario would be of great mutual advantage.

Initially the greatest threats to UK security would come from rogue nations unwilling to curb traditionally high birth rates but lacking the means to feed the ever-growing numbers of new mouths. In the past, these were the poverty-stricken nations that repeatedly received humanitarian aid and famine relief, which did nothing to reduce the birth rate. In a Darwinian world, Nature would take its course. In consequence, their populations would reduce particularly fast and their threat would fade away.

After four or five decades the populations of the UK and other nations following the same scenario would probably be halved. In the rest of the world, where Nature was doing the reduction in an ambience of massacres and destruction, the proportionate fall would be greater and the pain would have been terrible. In the UK, in contrast, where orderly population shrinkage would have outpaced resource shrinkage, a relatively comfortable quality of life would have been enjoyed throughout the period. There would have been no loss of technological expertise, but it would no longer be employed in grandiose energy-wasteful projects. Instead, there would be intensive research into cost-effective methods of renewable energy recovery.

A particular problem could arise from the fact that the world’s greatest oil reserves are controlled by the nations surrounding the Gulf. They have dizzyingly high birth rates which, for cultural reasons, they might not want to lower. Their populations exploded following the discovery of oil, and if the explosion continues, even a very high oil price will not provide enough national income to prevent general poverty. Indeed, the demand for Gulf oil might occasionally fall, if for example alternative sources were still available to nations practising orderly population reduction, and there was minimal demand from the chaotic rest of the world. After a decade or two of unrestricted population growth, with limited income from oil and terrible shortages, especially of water, Nature will begin to reverse population growth around the Gulf.

Of course, in a Darwinian world, a militarily powerful nation might try to take oil by force anywhere on the planet. World War Two provided recent examples: oil supply being critical to Germany and Japan.

Another problem is likely to be the residual opposition to population reduction from sentimentalists and/or religious extremists unable to understand that the days of plenty, when criminals and the weak could be cherished at public expense, are over. Acts of violent protest, such as are carried out today by animal rights activists and anti-abortionists, would, in the Darwinian world, attract capitalpunishment. Population reduction must be single-minded to succeed.

He is actually saying that nuking population centers is what will happen if we don't follow his scenario.

You catagorically did read it wrong.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:08:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')But monte your initial post was about an estimate of the carrying capacity based on material energy calculations that other people did. Aren;t you contradicting yourself when you start a thread listing a set of numbers and then writing that hard numbers aren't even relevant.


I said that weren't relevant until such time as we approach sustainability as the gap between where we are and where we need to be is so huge.

I try to use numbers to convince people where I don't need convincing.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:10:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')t think CrudeAwakening's idea (from the HOF thread) is more realistic than the mountain climber example:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f two people are competing for the same food source, which is only enough to support one of them, how do "universal rights" enter into this? One lives, the other dies. One's right to live infringes on the other's right to live.


It would be even more realistic with two nations instead of two people. It's a game (called "Resource War") with 3 outcomes: A dies, B dies or A & B both die. I agree with CA that rationality and universal rights cannot decide the outcome of this game. It must be decided by power.

Edit: This game has a strategy the Japanese call shinju (love suicide). If it is clear to B that he cannot win, he may (out of spite) prefer the outcome "A&B both die" to the outcome "B dies". In other words: "If I'm going to go, I'm taking you with me."

JD let's use a little bit of game theory here.
If both A & B need the resource to survive till they helicopter comes to the rescue (assume that they were stranded in an island) and that helicopter is guaranteed to arrive before the food runs out then a rational way out would be to pick straws, if the game ends here Simple decision theory ... there is a rational (there always is) way out.
If the food will not last till the chopper comes to the resuce there is no optimal strategy to solve this. They might as well share the food , have sex and commit suicide. From a decision theoretic stand point no one can win the game.
Consider the following game:
A and B are stranded to an island with enough food to sustain one of them till the chopper arrives. Once the rescue operation is over , the survivor will continue with his or her life and will do anything he can to "advance the human cause". Let's define the human cause: as sustainability effected by a very modest lifestyle and a creative (culturally/intellectually/scientifically contribution) nature. Note that since humans are NOT overunity devices they cannot pay back the fuel used in the chopper operation, or the life that was lost for them to survive and hence there is no energy balance calculation that can make a human a net energy contributor. After all we are all consumers. This means that a compound decision has to be made: i.e. we have to find the person who will benefit society (not in energetic terms, because it is not possible) in the long run. Consider that we have 2 people in the island: a fucking suburbanite with 2 cars, flying around, eating like a pig but healthy AND Stephen Hawking who consumes a fix amount of calories a day, cannot move without his electric wheelchair (which consumes 1/1000th the energy of an SUV) and a computer. The optimal decision would be to shoot the fat slob and let Stephen Hawking survive :twisted:
To take it at the global level: India has a much greater chance of creating a global sustaining life than EU/US/Japan in spite of their higher numbers. So if we were to be rational agents then we should be writing to our congressment/MPs/president to depopulate the hell out of the Western World (including ourselves). If we are not rational agents then the conversation is irrelevant - but one should not invoke science into this.
Science IS NEVER JUSTIFICATION FOR HUMANE OR INHUMANE POLICY. People seem to forget that
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby johnmarkos » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:31:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')here is not any evidence that the things they say must take place that are required to sustain 8 billion in the 30 yr update have even been started or even considered.

No, our leaders are fools. If I were president, I'd ask myself, "What would Dubya do?" then do the opposite. Of course, I'm too young to be president.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:31:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')snip

Monte no point to argue. You do not get it (according to me) and I do not get it (according to you). I will repeat it once and will let it rest ...
Darwinism is given as a justification/explanatory mechanism for the unavoidable population reduction in the UK and the rest of the world. He argues that it should be done in a controlled manner since it will be done by nature anyways (and he details his UK population program) but he does not bother with such a controlled scenarion in the rest of the world (he seems to think they are doomed). He clearly states that the success of the UK's criterion is predicated upon the rest of the world:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')nitially the greatest threats to UK security would come from rogue nations unwilling to curb traditionally high birth rates but lacking the means to feed the ever-growing numbers of new mouths.

then he proceed to write:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')urvival in a Darwinian resource-poor world depends on the ruthless elimination of rivals, not the acquisition of moral kudos by cherishing them when they are weak

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')f course, in a Darwinian world, a militarily powerful nation might try to take oil by force anywhere on the planet.

All of those phrases appear after the UK population reduction program.
He is careful enough not to associate the nuclear elimination of population centers in the same paragraph.
I was not categorically wrong, merely looking at the big picture. And thank you I will not take lessons on passage interpretation by anyone. People who can think for themselves can dissect a small text to its constitutents. Linear reading is only applicable to USA Today and cheap novels :P
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby venky » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:36:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'A')nd your point by quoting me , Venky?

Do I need to add.... I am not in favor of actively killing burdensome people, no matter how you choose to distort my writings.


No, actually my message didn't get through due to a poor connection. I'm sorry you think I distorted your words. I equated involuntary eusthansia with active killing which I still stand by. I am not entirely familiar with the earlier flame b/w you and JD so I dont know what exactly you proposed. I was entirely referring to the idea of involuntary eusthansia as proposed by JD in the starting of this thread.

Beside 'active killing' in my post in question referred to the actions of terrorists if you read it carefully.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby johnmarkos » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 14:38:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'N')o, our leaders are fools. If I were president, I'd ask myself, "What would Dubya do?" then do the opposite. Of course, I'm too young to be president.

And we are fools. We should eliminate the personal automobile. Until we do, we are choosing our own comfort over other people's sustenance, if we believe we are approaching a "resource war" scenario.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby freeman » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 15:05:33

Well, Hitler thought it was a good idea! His killing started with the sick and infirm, the mentally ill and incapable, and spread from there to the Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Russians, and anyone who he didn't like the look of.
Let's all remember that in an ethical world murder is the worst crime, and that is what is being proposed.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby holmes » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 16:30:10

Oh my god we are done. the earth is now a murderer. are we going to start putting Ma nature up on trial now when someone happens to slip through the bloated medical dependancy buerocracy and oh the horror DIES OF NATURAL CAUSES!
Nah invade and carpet bomb. That is better we dont have to to have it our fertilized back yard.
So everyone lives and cannibalizes themselves. Now thats the way to go out. everyone dies but first lives in their own shit. Extinction is a 95% certainty now with this kind of logic. No one is allowed to fucking die? who said anything about gas chambers and ethnic cleansing. O we got the PC patrol out today. Nature is brutal. and only will get more brutal as the sick, stupid and greedy take over the planet.

A crazy horse type last stand is upon us.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 19:25:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')I was not categorically wrong, merely looking at the big picture. And thank you I will not take lessons on passage interpretation by anyone. People who can think for themselves can dissect a small text to its constitutents. Linear reading is only applicable to USA Today and cheap novels :P


Nope, nice try. Spin doesn't work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t may well be that, in the West, the same argument will affect the thinking of militarily powerful nations. “If billions must die, and we have the technology to ensure that they are others, not us, why should we hold back”? Instantaneous nuclear elimination of population centres might even be considered merciful, compared to starvation and massacres prolonged over decades. Eventually, probably before 2150, world population will have fallen to a level that renewable energy, mainly biomass, can sustain. It is likely to be similar to the population before the Industrial Revolution.

That is the do-nothing, let Nature take its course, scenario, involving more than a century of immeasurable human suffering.
No ambiguity here. Quite clear he says using nukes is the do-nothing scenario.

You were totally wrong in your assertion. This is the only thing I took you to task on. If you can interpret the exact opposite of what he said, it gives me pause....

Clearly, you will find no one to agree with you on this point. The text is even qualified by him as not what he supports!
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 19:53:29

MQ I have already answered the point. In any case ... it is irrelevant.
My assessment of Stanton was extremely precise. You are beating a dead horse so to speak.
But to please you, you are right !
You know it all!
Hail Monte ... :roll:
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 19:57:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ') He clearly states that the success of the UK's criterion is predicated upon the rest of the world:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')nitially the greatest threats to UK security would come from rogue nations unwilling to curb traditionally high birth rates but lacking the means to feed the ever-growing numbers of new mouths.

then he proceed to write:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')urvival in a Darwinian resource-poor world depends on the ruthless elimination of rivals, not the acquisition of moral kudos by cherishing them when they are weak

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')f course, in a Darwinian world, a militarily powerful nation might try to take oil by force anywhere on the planet.

All of those phrases appear after the UK population reduction program.


Again you take him out of order and context.

What he said in context was:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the Darwinian world that preceded and will follow the fossil fuel era, these concepts were and will be meaningless. Survival in a Darwinian resource-poor world depends on the ruthless elimination of rivals, not the acquisition of moral kudos by cherishing them when they are weak.

Here he muses that the Darwinian world that will follow peakoil will be a struggle for survival just like it was in the past.

I have seen people blinded by their bias, but you exhibit stark levels.

My god man, the text is clear. So is history.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 20:03:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'M')Q I have already answered the point. In any case ... it is irrelevant.
My assessment of Stanton was extremely precise. You are beating a dead horse so to speak.
But to please you, you are right !
You know it all!
Hail Monte ... :roll:


The evidence speaks volumes. And your refusal to accept the facts speaks even louder.

Everyone else can read the article, too, you know. You said I was taking it in isolation. That was a fair request. So, I posted the article in it's entirety.

Any one who reads it can see you were wrong in your assertions. Why do you persist in denying the blatant obvious error?
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby EnergySpin » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 20:22:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'M')Q I have already answered the point. In any case ... it is irrelevant.
My assessment of Stanton was extremely precise. You are beating a dead horse so to speak.
But to please you, you are right !
You know it all!
Hail Monte ... :roll:


The evidence speaks volumes. And your refusal to accept the facts speaks even louder.

Everyone else can read the article, too, you know. You said I was taking it in isolation. That was a fair request. So, I posted the article in it's entirety.

Any one who reads it can see you were wrong in your assertions. Why do you persist in denying the blatant obvious error?

Monte I wrote WHY I think my interpretation is correct.
Why I do not trust people who make gross errors in multiplication and division.
Is it so difficult for you to see? Maybe this is a cultural bias ... in my profession people who make such gross errors (I'm referring to his calculation of carrying capacity) lose legitimacy. Why do you evade the question i.e.whether the gross numerical errors of the "Gods" Erlich/Stanton erode their credibility?
In any case ... If other people think I'm wrong ... so be it. The important question is why don't you proceed with your die-off scenario?
How does my assessment of Stanton interferes with the discussion in this thread? But to put things in perspective , permit me to make one point: you have no case to make, because you do not know what the carrying capacity is. You based your initial assessment (1 out 3 scenaria) on an energy calculation quoted from a summary of an article which was based on another article where the number appeared out of thin air. You obviously have not read the other articles so what is occuring here is just a mental masturbation. So Monte ... unless you provide us with the primary data that appeared in your original post, we only have to go with your hunch that we are in overshoot. I have already said that we very well might be in overshoot (due to CO2 issues) and that a number between 2-3 billion might be the limit (I reserve judgement on that because I have not had time to read the relevant literature). why is it so difficult to comprehend WHY people need to make accurate calculations?
In any case I'm done with this thread ... till you reconnect with the world of factual accuracy and not dogmatism.
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Re: Should we euthanize burdensome humans?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 20:34:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')Is it so difficult for you to see? Maybe this is a cultural bias ... in my profession people who make such gross errors (I'm referring to his calculation of carrying capacity) lose legitimacy. Why do you evade the question i.e.whether the gross numerical errors of the "Gods" Erlich/Stanton erode their credibility?
In any case ... If other people think I'm wrong ... so be it. The important question is why don't you proceed with your die-off scenario?
How does my assessment of Stanton interferes with the discussion in this thread?


Energyspin,

Do you even know what thread you are in? This is Denver's euthanasia thread, not my die-off scenario. :roll:
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