[Newfie]

Now you are just being provocative. Not nearly enough in this category to make any significant change.

Education, condoms, the Pill, the Morning After Pill should have made abortion all but extinct.

Personally, I think its a question between a woman and her spiritual leader with only some fringe questions in the public domain.

But lets not pollute this thread with that argument, we/you can start another thread for that discussion if you feel the need.

[dohboi]

"Education, condoms, the Pill, the Morning After Pill..."

All things vehemently opposed by many of the most vehement anti-abortionists.

On the other point, every year that a woman doesn't have a kid is a plus, as far as world pop is concerned.

It means another year to reconsider the choice ( if she is in a position to make one). She may also become sterile over that year, for one reason or the other.

I'm not sure how many woman will try to 'catch up' to bear more kids than they would have otherwise to 'make up' for the kids they didn't have during covid

Also, things generally continue to look grimmer and grimmer, GW-wise, economically, and in terms of public health, all things that may dissuade women and couples from deciding to bring another soul into this veil of tears.

[dolanbaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'N')ow you are just being provocative. Not nearly enough in this category to make any significant change.

Education, condoms, the Pill, the Morning After Pill should have made abortion all but extinct.

Personally, I think its a question between a woman and her spiritual leader with only some fringe questions in the public domain.

But lets not pollute this thread with that argument, we/you can start another thread for that discussion if you feel the need.

[dohboi]

dol, it's best to steer clear of absolutist statements like "all of them" online, especially one so easily falsifiable.

The Shakers are (or rather were) one obvious exception to your universal claim, for example, and that's just the one that popped into my head in the first couple seconds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

[Ibon]

Actually striking down Roe vs Wade will be more symbolic than actually stopping abortions. It's kind of like Covid19. You can't stop the spread of the virus when there is no coherency on a national level. When each state regulates abortion this wont stop women who need the service from travelling to neighboring states. And the poor will have easily available clandestine ways to get the abortion pill if they cannot afford to go across state lines.

Some states might create a new tourist industry.

Like Seattle............... Come to Seattle, ride the Space Needle, smoke some weed, get an abortion, your perfect weekend getaway!

[jedrider]

Abortion is an issue of liberties. Why have the federal government dictate what you can and cannot do?

Most liberties are at the expense of someone else's liberties. In the case of abortion, we are just hurting the feelings of some Catholics or such. I personally don't care if their feelings are hurt.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'A')bortion is an issue of liberties. Why have the federal government dictate what you can and cannot do?

Most liberties are at the expense of someone else's liberties. In the case of abortion, we are just hurting the feelings of some Catholics or such. I personally don't care if their feelings are hurt.

[Newfie]

Sub,

Not following your logic there.

[dohboi]

jed is, as usual, right

it's all about controlling women's bodies

those who are really claiming personhood for fetuses are in fact proposing that every woman who ever has or will undergo the tragedy of miscarriage must become a murder suspect

That is just plain, raw cruelty

few anti-abortionists show much concern for children and families who are actually full humans, being happy to turn the other way as tRump locks kids in cages, separating them from their families, to name just one of many examples.

Abortions dropped faster in each of the the recent Dem administrations than in the Rep ones, and they actually rose under tRump...so real anti-abortionists should all be wildly anti-Trump and wildly pro-Dems.

That they are not, shows that they are either ignorant or...the nicest word would be disingenuous...

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '
')
those who are really claiming personhood for fetuses are in fact proposing that every woman who ever has or will undergo the tragedy of miscarriage must become a murder suspect

That is just plain, raw cruelty
.

[Ibon]

Further point regarding symbolism

When real physical concrete declines in your quality of life and standard of living are trending downward as happens when a civilization is going through decline or through a tumultuous correction this is when symbolism can rise in importance over rational concrete issues like real reform. That is why we do not see members of Group A and Group B joining forces to push for reform that would be beneficial to both sides. Symbolism trumps reality in this case which keeps these group split.

How resilient is this split through the inflection point we are all living through is a pressing question worth contemplation.

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')t is pure symbolism however since the autonomy of women is so far advanced that you cannot legislate it away. There will be very well organized efforts to continue to provide reproductive health care services to women regardless of the attempts of the state to try to control womens bodies and choices.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '
')Also, things generally continue to look grimmer and grimmer, GW-wise, economically, and in terms of public health, all things that may dissuade women and couples from deciding to bring another soul into this veil of tears.

[dohboi]

Good points. But you don't need Harvard, or even college, educations to see dramatic reductions in birth rates in third world countries

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12280695/

And of course education specifically about family planning (and the resources to support decisions to have smaller families) is the most crucial kind of education in this case:

https://www.dandc.eu/en/article/how-ban ... an-mere-21

A total fertility rate (TFR) of 2.1 means that women have 2.1 children on average in their lifetime. At this TFR and without migration, a country’s population is neither growing nor shrinking. Bangladesh has reached that mark, and the trend is good in other South Asian countries as well. In 1966, the TFR for this world region was 5

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The World Bank reports that the TFR was 6.6 in what was then East Pakistan in 1960.

The rate has since been reduced by more than two thirds.

The achievement is important because sustainable development requires a stable population.

In Bangladesh, the first family-planning programmes were launched in the 1960s. They did not deliver impressive results. An important reason was that they focused entirely on contraception methods, but failed to tackle issues of maternal and child health as well. What really encourages parents to opt for smaller families is lower infant and child mortality. If they think some of their children will die, they want to have several to make sure that some survive. If they expect their children to live, however, they want to invest in their education to maximise their chances in life. On average, healthier families are therefore smaller families.

After independence from Pakistan, Bangladesh ran very successful vaccination programmes. Moreover, basic health services began to improve, mostly due to non-governmental efforts. However, the government also recognised the need to focus on maternal and child health. More children than before lived beyond their fifth birthday.

Experience shows that close cooperation of state institutions and civil society is useful. In 1978, the Bangladeshi government started to promote family-planning services through family-welfare assistants, most of whom were professionally trained paramedics, nurses and birth attendants. Their job was to reach out to village women at the grassroots level.

The point was to advise mothers about the benefits of having a small family, but they offered comprehensive advice on other things and helped families to get access to competent health care.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'S')ub,

Not following your logic there.

[jedrider]

Details, details, Subjectivist. We all know that the Anti-Abortionist want NO abortions conducted at all. No fetal research conducted at all. Etc, etc.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', ' ')What I can not understand is how abortion advocates in the USA keep pushing for ever more broad definitions of when the mothers rights are all that count.

[Ibon]

Time for a personal story. I was 21 years old, last year of college, during the tail end of a relationship my girlfriend got pregnant. Our relationship at that point was clearly coming to an end, she wanted to farm, I wanted to roam the world. She chose to get an abortion, I supported this and my father helped out to pay for this because I was broke.

10 years later I was in her neighborhood, she owned a dairy farm, was married, had 3 children. I made social call to catch up with her life and at that time I had already my first daughter. Eventually I had a second child.

She produced 3 children after she had actualized her career and started to build her future in a rural agrarian community. I had two children after I had roamed the planet a bit and eventually met my wife in the Philippines.

My personal experience represents the core right that must be preserved. This is a woman's right to balance her choice of starting a family with her own personal development.

Here is the flaw when abortion opponents talk of all the millions of fetuses aborted as if this is a loss of millions of lives. It is not because as in the example of my first girlfriend, her 3 children and my 2 children would never have been born had we not made the decision to abort that first pregnancy.

You need to consider the lives that were born subsequently to an abortion by those involved to accurately assess the importance of honoring the sanctity of life. Those 5 children born after that initial abortion have all been honored with the sanctity of life in both my former girlfriend and myself being far more mature adults when we finally choose to have kids.

It is only a primitive authoritarian patriarchy that would consider taking away the rights my first girlfriend and I had when we choose to terminate that pregnancy.

[jedrider]

Ibon, you're trying to reason with 'irrationality'. It will just fly right pass them. But, that is the point: Life is not so sacrosanct. Laws are what we live by. Nature has it's own logic. It's good not to confuse the two.

Religion does not honor life as has been demonstrated so many times in every war. They only want to feel important, that their religion matters. It is never more than that.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'I')bon, you're trying to reason with 'irrationality'. It will just fly right pass them. But, that is the point: Life is not so sacrosanct. Laws are what we live by. Nature has it's own logic. It's good not to confuse the two.

Religion does not honor life as has been demonstrated so many times in every war. They only want to feel important, that their religion matters. It is never more than that.