$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '
')
My concern is I'm not seeing credible workable solutions instead of the UBI. Just ignoring the problem is something we're good at, but leads to social disaster and then bankruptcy.
PeakOil is You
Reverse Racism
Re: Reverse Racism
by Ibon » Sun 15 Jul 2018, 23:00:12
Yes, we have in the western hemisphere a perfect example of what happens if we do nothing; Brazil. Ever been there? I did about 50 trips there between 1989 and 2004. Got to know the culture very well, was invited into the homes and neighborhoods of my representatives I was managing and also spend time with my cousins and aunt who immigrated from Italy after WWII.
Perhaps my favorite country in Latin America, something about this giant melting pot and huge size and rich ethnic and racial heritage and irreverent humor and all the rest. Somehow like the USA but without all the uptight religious conservative hypocrisy. BUT the biggest price every Brazilian pays who lives in this country is the percentage of time and effort dedicated to personal security, neighborhoods sealed off, crime and robbery rampant, the upper middle class and wealthy living in prison like security ghettos, there is no respect to any piece of personal property that is not tied down, locked, secured and alarmed with triple military barb wire and broken off glass bottles lining the tops of stone walls... everywhere.
This is the future of the USA if we do nothing as OS states above. . Of course not for the 1% who will be able to afford the same security apparatus as their Brazilian 1% counterparts. But this will be the reality for the American middle class, that broad segment of the US population that already has been sacrificed to enable the 1% to reach astronomical wealth during the past 30 years. And now on top of that we want to target the programs that provide an imperfect safety net for the poor. OK, go right ahead.
As OS states it is easy to criticize any social safety net or welfare program. As inefficient and full of abuse as they are, as much as they do have the consequence of socializing and institutionalizing poverty, as much as all of that is true, go ahead and completely pull the rug out from under the poorest in the USA at the same time as we continue to erode the standard of living of the middle class as we have seen for the past 30 years and Brazil's reality is what we will end up having in the USA.....
Yep, so easy to criticize, not so easy to come up with viable solutions. if there are any.
I don't have any, just some observations here to try to broaden the perspective a bit.
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Re: Reverse Racism
by Tanada » Mon 16 Jul 2018, 00:50:33
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')One last thought: If give-aways were any sort of solution, conditions in the inner cities would be improving, not deteriorating.
')One last thought: If give-aways were any sort of solution, conditions in the inner cities would be improving, not deteriorating.
OK. I have no problem at all with the idea that a UBI won't work because it is a give-away, and give-aways for various reasons are a bad thing. That's a reasonable argument. Ironically, up to the point of the UBI discussion, I was consistently on your side re give-aways.
The thing that helped change my mind (and typical give-away liberals just HATE), is the idea of using the UBI to dismantle the vast majority of the EVER EXPANDING US welfare state, which is going to bankrupt us anyway, if we don't get it under control. (Just look at any credible long term US budget / debt projection based on the current system).
My concern is I'm not seeing credible workable solutions instead of the UBI. Just ignoring the problem is something we're good at, but leads to social disaster and then bankruptcy.
Ya wanna know a secret? The Western Roman Empire instituted this same idea in the last years of the Old republic by providing a basic minimum dole of free grain to residents of the city of Rome. The attendance of any public stadium whether it be gladiatorial combat, horse races, prisoner execution by combat, or dramatic plays/puppet shows/musical performances were 100% free to the public at large. You could get better food and better seats with a small purchase price, but your basic minimum food needs and bleacher equivalent stadium seating were free to all residents, even the slaves and lowest levels of the poor plebeians.
Doing these things kept the masses peaceable for the most part, but ultimately bankrupted the Western Empire where the practices were followed most closely. Byzantium i.e. the Eastern Roman Empire lasted a thousand years beyond the fall of Rome because the emperors on that side refused to bankrupt the Empire providing free 'bread and circuses' like their western counterparts had done. Constantinople the capital of Byzantium was the equal of Rome in population and diversity, yet fundamental public policy allowed it to prosper a full ten centuries longer. It certainly did not hurt that Egypt was in the eastern half of the Empire and was the breadbasket of the world at the time exporting more wheat than Italy could grow. The exporting of grain gave the Eastern Empire a steady income in addition to taxes for much of its existence creating a cash surplus state instead of a cash deficit state.
I would rather we follow the example of Constantinople than that of Rome, but my wishes are pretty much ignored by my government.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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