[Aaron]

We have all probably said it... I'd kill for a ****. We (mostly), don't mean it literally of course, but as a literary method to emphasize our point about how bad we want it.
What's that called again? (Exaggerating to make a point)

Anyway, What would you actually kill for? Or do you think you're capable of murder at all, regardless of the reason? We are all guilty of murder for hire of course in many different ways.

But for those of you who have never taken a life yourself, like hunting or bustin a cap in yo a**, do you think you could. And what would you consider a justified killing? Just how civil is civilized?

[bruss01]

When it comes down to it, really, I think that basic reptillian survival and self preservation instincts will kick in.

So, most individuals will kill if they perceive that as being their only path to survival. Most would extend this to include survival of one's immediate family.

If one is being threatened with a deadly attack, they will kill to survive it.

If one is in danger of starving, they will kill for food.

If one is in danger of dying of thirst, they will kill for water.

In a world of finite resources needed for survival, the real question will be "how long will you wait" before you are desperate enough.

Those with an optimistic outlook, a high tolerance for deprivation, and a powerful moral prohibition against killing, will wait a long time, hoping for other options.

While they wait, they become weaker and the finite resources are being gradually depleted by themselves and their competitors for those resources.

Those who are pessimistic, have low tolerance for deprivation and/or less inhibition against killing will not choose to wait until they have been weakened by want of necessities - they will act while they are still strong and resources (though finite) are still available, not waiting for their competitors to consume them. They will not say "I am not dying of thirst right now... so I cannot in good conscience kill for water". They will say "There is enough water to last 8 people for 100 days. I will not wait 100 days... If I and my family kill the others, the water will be ours, and it will last longer."

Hopefully the optimists will have enough knowledge of human nature (and enough ammo) to see this problem coming.

[Jack]

What would I kill for? Self-defense, certainly. Survival, absolutely. For gain - quite possibly.

The key issue would be the risk of prosecution; thus, so long as it was legal - or, alternatively, outside any operative legal jurisdiction - the act would be considered. Immunity from prosecution would make the decision easier.

A second - but important - consideration would be the physical risk to me in carrying out the action.

Justification is an interesting question. Survival would count as justification - yes, I recognize the other aspect of that two-sided sword. Gain beyond survival probably wouldn't be justifiable; but might still be worthwhile.

If there is a breakdown of law and order, I suspect many will follow the above algorithm.

[Pops]

Getting’ out some aggression A?


I’m usually the one that tries to get in and break things up or take the more rational tact when others get hot – all head and no belly.

In my younger days I had a hot temper, but it seems to have ‘tempered’ as I have learned to get along in the world.

But when that cold feeling comes in the belly, it’s actually kind of scary.

I’m fairly sure I would in heat, I think I would in defense – don’t know about #1

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat's that called again? (Exaggerating to make a point)

[lorenzo]

There's a National Geographic documentary about killing, based on historic, biologic and psychiatric evidence. The results are pretty amazing:

-it seems that during WWII only 2% of all soldiers actually aimed to kill
-25% pointed their guns at the enemy, but shot vaguely so as to not to kill
-73% invented all kinds of tricks to make sure they didn't have to shoot at all

The conclusion is: "thou shalt not kill" is probably engraved in our genes.

[Aaron]

I figured most would say they would kill in defense... although buck fever could prevent even this.

But what about less clear cases?

What if you walked into a room where your wife was being brutally raped?

What if the woman was a stranger?

Or if it was a man being raped?

Would it make a difference to you?

What if you caught him, right after the rape?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', '
')I guess you don't find out about these things until you're in the middle of it.

[dmtu]

What Bruss said with the addition of property if, and only if I needed that property for survival and said property was irreplacable. In our current economic state I would count all property as replacable. I would be hard pressed to kill for water or food that was not mine but if I in very hard times I could kill to preserve the food and water that I had toiled for. I would also kill to protect the innocent from asshat psychotics that raid a public place with a semi if I was equiped at the moment.

[The_Toecutter]

No matter the legal ramifications, I'd kill as necessary in the following conflicts:

1) Immediate danger posed to myself or family or friends
2) To evade involuntary servitude (ie. military draft, debtor's prison, ect.)
3) If number 2 above, kill to evade subsequent arrest

Dying doesn't scare me near as much as completely losing personal freedom does.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('i', 'I') guess you don't find out about these things until you're in the middle of it.

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', '
')I guess you don't find out about these things until you're in the middle of it.

[k_semler]

Kill what? A human, a coyote, a bird, a deer? a pet? what?

To kill a bird, all it has to do is shit on my car when I am at home. I have killed many blackbirds and magpies for that very reason, (or just because they are too noisy)

To kill a deer, all I would need to do is go get my hunting lisence if I was doing it for sport, or if hungry enough, just go out to the fields behind my house and take one down.

To kill a person's pet, (mine or somebody else's), it would have to be either suffering from an extreme amount of pain, (put it out of it's misery), or if it posed a direct threat to human of livestock.

To kill a coyote, all it has to do is get within 50 yards of the pasture. I will NOT have my animals killed by a coyote, and I will not have my dog in pain to fend of an attack on the home.

To kill a human, it would only be done if my life or property, or another's life were in extreme danger, and no other action could be taken I would consider this to be a justifiable homicide. Washington State has no legal requirement to attempt to retreat before deadly force can be lawfully employed. A few applicable statures:

RCW 9A.16.020; Use of force -- When lawful:
(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

RCW 9A.16.030; Homicide -- When excusable:

Homicide is excusable when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means, without criminal negligence, or without any unlawful intent.

RCW 9A.16.050; Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable:

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

RCW 9A.16.110; Defending against violent crime -- Reimbursement

(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

(2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.

(3) Notwithstanding a finding that a defendant's actions were justified by self-defense, if the trier of fact also determines that the defendant was engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the charges filed against the defendant the judge may deny or reduce the amount of the award. In determining the amount of the award, the judge shall also consider the seriousness of the initial criminal conduct.

Nothing in this section precludes the legislature from using the sundry claims process to grant an award where none was granted under this section or to grant a higher award than one granted under this section.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Arlo Guthrie and Alice's Restaraunt:

what I came to tell you about.

Came to talk about the draft.

They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one
day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so
I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning. `Cause I wanted to
look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted
to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,
and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all
kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

(think I'll download it, I wanna hear that song again)

[killJOY]

Oh. Almost forgot...

I've wrung the necks of chickens and ripped their guts out (tasty chickens).

I've strung turkeys from apple trees and "picked" them (ie driven a sharp knife up the backs of their mouths and into their brains, killing them instantly). Prolonging any critter's suffering appalls me.

I've shot many a woodchuck. I actually beat one to death with a shovel once.

I punched someone in the nose in the 6th grade for saying I liked some girl.


And I've simply WASTED trillions of spermcells....

[Pops]

That someone in the 6th grade must have REALLY pissed you off!

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I've simply WASTED trillions of spermcells....

[PenultimateManStanding]

I shot a bird with a BB gun as a boy and felt enormous remorse. But then again, I got thrown in jail for knocking a guys tooth out. (the arresting cops agreed that it was justified and the DA didn't press charges, I was sent to a mediator who said I should apologize. I refused to do so and everything was just dropped)

[DomusAlbion]

I'd kill for some sushi and a really cold beer right now.

Of course I've been packing all day and it is dinner time.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DomusAlbion', 'I')'d kill for some sushi and a really cold beer right now.