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BNP discussion

Unread postby Novus » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 13:59:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('POAN', 'I')nteresting Peak Oil website: Peak Oil

What are your thoughts? I found it extremily enlightening.


You do realize the BNP are Nazis. They beleive in the purity of the Britsh race and want to kick all the forieners out.

{These posts were off-topic and moved here. Please feel free to continue the BNP discussion- jato}
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Re: Interesting Peak Oil website

Unread postby POAN » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 14:07:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('POAN', 'I')nteresting Peak Oil website: Peak Oil

What are your thoughts? I found it extremily enlightening.


You do realize the BNP are Nazis. They beleive in the purity of the Britsh race and want to kick all the forieners out.


This isn't to discuss the BNP but you are wrong. I find being called a Nazi deeply offensive to say the least. I think calling the entire membership of of the BNP Nazis very ignorant indeed especially after the fact that they went to great ends to get rid of the 'Nazis' within their ranks.

The BNP are not 'Nazis' at all - screaming 'Nartzee' at someone is the very last line of defence for those ignorant beings who are without a justifiable opinion.

See the Hindu and Sikh support for them: http://www.bnp.org.uk/bnptv/peb2.zip which was broadcast on TV.

As for wanting to kick all foreigners out, I think you really need to view their manifeso as you are wrong again - manifesto: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... ifesto.pdf

Nevertheless, although I do hope you take an open minded look at the BNP deeper I would like your opinion on the content of the peak oil site linked.[B]
Last edited by POAN on Sun 17 Jul 2005, 15:12:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby jato » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 14:13:22

Godwin's law- Whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 20:49:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for wanting to kick all foreigners out, I think you really need to view their manifeso as you are wrong again - manifesto

Hm I read the manifesto ... in page 15/54 I found the following paragraph:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hose illegal immigrants who truthfully declare their illegal status to the authorities
during the registration period will be able to claim, in the case of skilled and key
workers, extended leave to remain in the United Kingdom as long as they are
benefiting the UK economy and stay as residents until such time as we have had time
to train British personnel to replace them.
During this period we would also strive to provide these regularized illegal key
workers with extra training intended to increase their value to their home countries on
their return.

So unless they are kicked out, how are they going to return?
I am surprised, that it is mentioned that sometimes these damned foreigners do jobs that no Briit is yet qualified to do.
Let's see:
Case A: The foreigner holds valuable expertise and no Brit with similar experience is out there. So how is the experience going to be transferred? At gun point?
Case B: A foreigner fills the burger flipping jobs at McDonald's. So he is going to train his Brit successor in the high tech job of burger flipping?
Obviously Case B Immigrants are going to be expelled immediately; Case A will be forced to train the Brits and then kicked out.

Another (totally infounded in modern pharmacogenomics research ) crap
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic
group or race is ‘superior’ or ‘inferior’; we simply recognise that – as any biologist
would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now
confirming – human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes
while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in
many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies
and such like.

No such research has uncovered behavioural tendencies or differences in other fields of endeavour. It has uncovered differences in response to medications; in fact here in the States the medical profession became involved in a lengthy argument on labeling a medication as for African Americans only. This has been the only real outcome of "racial" pharmacogenomics as applied to race (and disputed btw, due to the fact that the African American population has a lot of substructures (the correct technical term btw) that makes medicine by colour an inefficient exercise. Actually what pharmacogenomics has shown is that the differences among individuals of the same race is larger than the difference among races, hence an individualized approach is necessary.
Anyone with a college level understanding of statistics and ANOVA models in particular can see how this is possible, no need for rocket science :)
Even the term pharmacogenetics is suspect when used in such context (i.e. differences can be attributed to specific genes only). The correct scientific term is "genomics" a wider concept incorporating the interaction of epigenetic and genetic phenomena.


No BNP is nothing more than Hittler/Stalin/Mussoline in disguise.
Shame on them, them do not honour the thousands of brave Brittish citizens and soldiers who died in WWII.
BTW the EU comments are inaccurate. There is no reason for the rest of the EU to sign a free trade argument if UK walks out. If UK decides to unilaterally revoke the right to move and professional rights granted under the Maastricth Treaty, then the rest of the EU countries will do the same. Given the amount of foreign investment in UK this will lead in a massive efflux of money from the litl island. In addition your pensioners in Spain, Italy, Portugal, South France, Greece (all countries with laws that limit the amount of proporty that a non EU foreigner can hold) will send Brit oldfolks back. Both UK and EU will suffer ... chances is that UK (being the smaller) will be hit worse
It is chilling that people believe the amount of crap in the Manifesto. It is even more chilling that PO might lead to a rise of such ideas across the globe. After reading this I became a doomer and I want my Mammy to hold me 8O
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 21:15:57

More crap (page 15) emphasis is mine
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, when we speak of ‘British democracy’ we do so in an ethnic as well as
a civic sense. We do not accept the absurd superstition – propagated for different
though sometimes overlapping reasons by capitalists, liberals, Marxists and
theologians - of human equality. Whether the now totally discredited feminist
argument that men and women are innately the same, to the partly refuted egalitarian
claim that everyone within a given population is born as a blank slate with the same
innate potential, or to the still dominant Politically Correct denial of the existence of
differences on average between members of different races – we reject all these
irrational myths.

And the lie about how science has proved the superiority of modern man
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o deny such differences on the grounds of egalitarian dogma has always been
wrong, but to continue to do so in the light of the latest medical evidence is to
condemn people to unnecessary suffering on account of racially specific health
problems. We therefore believe that the myth that “we are all the same under the
skin” will soon be as discredited as its feminist equivalent, and that all political parties
will have to drastically amend their thinking to reflect the new reality in the not too
distant future.

Same crap that the Eugenics movement was propagating in the early 20th century (that too was founded in "science")
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Sun 17 Jul 2005, 23:52:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', 'I')nteresting is certainly one word for it.


This was a completely predictable development, and we are going to see more of it. The left-wing, environmentalist peak oil doomers are going to wake up to find themselves in bed with right wing fearmongers and authoritarians. The Stanton article in the latest ASPO newsletter, and the BNP glomming onto peak oil are just the same weed sprouting in two places.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') was surprised to see that Nick Griffin made an appearance at the Edinburgh conference back in April. It's interesting that the BNP are the most popular party (polling around 2% where they contest) talking about peak oil. It's also scary since if the collapse is particularly bad the public could lose faith in the current government and look around for an alternative. The BNP could in an instant pop up from nowhere with a peak oil agenda. Desperate people in desperate times could vote in desperate ways.


That's why it is so imperative to stomp on people like Stanton and the BNP before they get a foothold. This is a point where you really can make a difference. Of course, you're not going to get very far if you're preaching an inevitable mass global die-off. That's music to the BNP's ears. It's the justification for why they need to clean house on the liberals and run the country. It's a national emergency.

It reminds me of the incongruity of Jake from peakoil.ie. Here he is at the top of his page:
Image
A nice, sporty young guy working to build peak oil awareness.

Meanwhile, Jake is publishing this right wing BNP horseshit in the ASPO newsletter:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o those sentimentalists who cannot understand the need to reduce UK population from 60 million to about 2 million over 150 years, and who are outraged at the proposed replacement of human rights by cold logic, I would say “You have had your day, in which your woolly thinking has messed up not just the Western world but the whole planet, which could, if Homo sapiens had been truly intelligent, have supported a small population enjoying a wonderful quality of life almost for ever. You have thrown away that opportunity.”

The Darwinian approach, in this planned population reduction scenario, is to maximise the well-being of the UK as a nation-state. Individual citizens, and aliens, must expect to be seriously inconvenienced by the single-minded drive to reduce population ahead of resource shortage. The consolation is that the alternative, letting Nature take its course, would be so much worse.

The scenario is: Immigration is banned. Unauthorised arrives are treated as criminals. Every woman is entitled to raise one healthy child. No religious or cultural exceptions can be made, but entitlements can be traded. Abortion or infanticide is compulsory if the fetus or baby proves to be handicapped (Darwinian selection weeds out the unfit). When, through old age, accident or disease, an individual becomes more of a burden than a benefit to society, his or her life is humanely ended. Voluntary euthanasia is legal and made easy. Imprisonment is rare, replaced by corporal punishment for lesser offences and painless capital punishment for greater.


Are Jake and Colin Campbell sympathetic to the BNP? I think they are, considering that they're publishing material which might as well have come straight out of the BNP manifesto.

Fascism arises because good people like yourself, Chris, do not stomp on the weeds when they sprout. Don't let the Stantons and the BNPs of the world use you, while you mindlessly cooperate with them cause they're your peak oil buddies.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 00:12:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re Jake and Colin Campbell sympathetic to the BNP? I think they are, considering that they're publishing material which might as well have come straight out of the BNP manifesto

JD this might be uncalled for ... CC never made such assertions at least in public. On the other hand the idea that a geologic phenomenon (PO) is used t o justify a political agenda is sooo interesting.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he left-wing, environmentalist peak oil doomers are going to wake up to find themselves in bed with right wing fearmongers and authoritarians

Astute observation, especially when this might be the way to cleanse the nation. Anyone following EU politics can see it is true, right wingers and left wingers sleeping together to attack ALL globalization and multicultarism instead of restricting the attention to the free market bull.
It is interesting to note that when people are cornered to use quantitative models for PO, resource utlization, and the relation of man to environment they stay silent. For example positive studies on biofuels and actual data on alternatives are under-emphasized and dismissed as phantasies.
It would be interesting to see if the doomology on PO has a hidden agenda.
Heil Hittler
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 00:37:12

Hm it seems that New Era Investor made the connection months ago.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eak Oil is a paradigm shift. People will be forced to look at their lifestyles and the way they conduct their day to day living. Indeed, as many predict, this shift may well be from that of somewhere above abundance to that of somewhere above subsistence. I personally do not think that is such a bad thing if it weans us off materialism but still provides us with a living where legitimate needs are still adequately met.....
I propose that the BNP see this coming paradigm shift and are preparing. They know the history of the rise of the Nazi party, they see an opportunity to rise themselves. Given the darker side of human nature, they could well be right. No doubt, their counterparts in the USA and other countries are also debriefed on what Peak Oil could mean to them and will prepare and wait accordingly..


The whole text can be found here:
http://newerainvestor.blogspot.com/2005 ... scism.html
Read Hittler's strategies and try to make a connection.
If there are doomologists with a hidden agenda (I'm not suggesting that ALL doomologists have a hidden agenda), we will see more of that. Let's wait to see the next ASPO letter. There was something on an Italian blog about the relationship between PO and fascism, but my Italian is not good and extrapolating from my dead latin skills is a recipe to disaster.
Any Europeans listening?
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 00:56:29

John Denver where you afraid of something like this?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere is our warning to you now. Those criminals, traitors, fools and fantasists that delay our rise to power will be treated as criminals when we take power. This Peak Oil situation will destroy our entire Nation and Western Civilisation unless the BNP are allowed to take power. The left and the liberals, the socialists and the environmentalists and the capitalists are all guilty of the same crime - of opposing the one part that can solve tis crisis , the one party that has the Wil and Vision to fight for our future.


I urge everyone to read the response that the article on PO and fascism generated at the New Era Investor, posted previously.
Thank God I received military training ... time to fight fascism again.
My family did some nice damage to the fascists in two continents :)
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:20:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'J')ohn Denver where you afraid of something like this?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere is our warning to you now. Those criminals, traitors, fools and fantasists that delay our rise to power will be treated as criminals when we take power. This Peak Oil situation will destroy our entire Nation and Western Civilisation unless the BNP are allowed to take power. The left and the liberals, the socialists and the environmentalists and the capitalists are all guilty of the same crime - of opposing the one part that can solve tis crisis , the one party that has the Wil and Vision to fight for our future.


I'm not feeling any fear of fascist scumbags ES. Delivering a good, solid, baseball bat blow to the teeth of that fascist would be well worth the assault charge. :)
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Re: BNP discussion

Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:30:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'Y')ou do realize the BNP are Nazis. They beleive in the purity of the Britsh race and want to kick all the forieners out.


"You do realize the Japanese are Nazis. They believe in the purity of the Japanese race and want to kick all the foreigners out."

The British people are not a race, in and of themselves, and nobody claims otherwise - particularly the leadership of the BNP (who know far more about the science of race than any of you 'propagandized.') Britain is a Caucasian nation and they have every right to keep it so.
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Unread postby eastbay » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:38:49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Godwin's law- Whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress

I couldn't agree more Jato. When this sort of thing happens I'm reminded of the scene in Invasion of the Body Snatchers when Donald Sutherlin points and screams at a person who has not yet become assimilated with the alien presence.

The one pointing and screaming 'NAZI!!!', or 'COMMUNIST!!!' or just about anything else has no further meaning to me particularly losing all credibility on THAT particular argument and tainting others.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:42:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'l')eadership of the BNP (who know far more about the science of race than any of you 'propagandized.')

Says who? In a single page, they trashed modern molecular medicine and misrepresented data to push for an agenda.
A predisposition to report to a certain class of medications is not synonymous (note that there was a really heated argument in the pages of JAMA/New England Journal of Medicine regarding "racial marketing" of a heart failure/hypertension drug) to human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes
while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in
many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies
and such like. where truth and propaganda are mixed.
Careful you are walking on thin ice here. Invoking science to justify a racial policy is REALLY BAD SCIENCE. Get a copy of Suzuki Griffith's Genetics to see why no racial program can ever work. It is just a justification for a hatred campaign. Same arguments were used during the genocide in Rwanda
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Re: BNP discussion

Unread postby JohnDenver » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:49:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'Y')ou do realize the BNP are Nazis. They beleive in the purity of the Britsh race and want to kick all the forieners out.


"You do realize the Japanese are Nazis. They believe in the purity of the Japanese race and want to kick all the foreigners out."


I live in Japan, and know Japanese people very well from first hand experience. Out of the hundreds of people I have come to know, I've only met one who wanted to kick all the foreigners out. The Japanese are extremely welcoming and tolerant of foreigners. Xenophobic assholes like yourself are very much a fringe minority.
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Unread postby eastbay » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:52:59

Thanks Novus... excellent reading.

I bet the other UK parties will have to get going with some catch-up or the BNP could be seen as the only Common Sense Party.

The Others, the Dumb, the Dumber and the Even Dumber Still Parties might soon be viewed as out of touch with reality for ignoring the Peak Oil crisis and allowing the UK to walk hand in hand with the Maniac-in-Chief of the USA into pointless and wasteful oil wars.

Really, this is about the best Peak Oil political party position (say that 10 times really fast) I've read since scanning the New Zealand Green Party PO position statement.
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Unread postby venky » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 01:55:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'J')ohn Denver where you afraid of something like this?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere is our warning to you now. Those criminals, traitors, fools and fantasists that delay our rise to power will be treated as criminals when we take power. This Peak Oil situation will destroy our entire Nation and Western Civilisation unless the BNP are allowed to take power. The left and the liberals, the socialists and the environmentalists and the capitalists are all guilty of the same crime - of opposing the one part that can solve tis crisis , the one party that has the Wil and Vision to fight for our future.


I urge everyone to read the response that the article on PO and fascism generated at the New Era Investor, posted previously.
Thank God I received military training ... time to fight fascism again.
My family did some nice damage to the fascists in two continents :)


I read it. It was chilling. I said earlier that the BNP, though far right, were not like the Nazi's. I was wrong. They are Nazi's.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:04:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
')Godwin's law- Whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress

[...]

The one pointing and screaming 'NAZI!!!', or 'COMMUNIST!!!' or just about anything else has no further meaning to me particularly losing all credibility on THAT particular argument and tainting others.


Mike Godwin can take Godwin's Law and blow it out his fat ass. This isn't a game you fuckwit.

If you want to stick up for the fascists and racists, do it upfront like a man. Don't hide behind some juvenile little game that you think we're all going to play along with.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:07:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') read it. It was chilling. I said earlier that the BNP, though far right, were not like the Nazi's. I was wrong. They are Nazi's

The key question is the following: Let's say that someone with an ulterior motive has a really good idea about ANY problem, not PO. Can he be trusted to deliver? Or is he going to use this good idea as an excuse to advance his agenda?
This is going to get interesting .... maybe a litl background check (kind of impossible in these forums) will be required before we accept solutions. Ideas are welcome .... but interpretation will need to consider the BIG picture.
Maybe MQ is right ... this might be one of the ways the collapse will be brought about. Maybe people who are tolerant will have to show no tolerance towards people who are intolerant of others.
Interesting times indeed .... I'm going to wake up my mother. She never prepared me for something like this 8O
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Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:11:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Energy Spin', 'A')nother (totally infounded in modern pharmacogenomics research ) crap


Then you contradict yourself immediately after (and correctly):

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has uncovered differences in response to medications; in fact here in the States the medical profession became involved in a lengthy argument on labeling a medication as for African Americans only. This has been the only real outcome of "racial" pharmacogenomics as applied to race


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o such research has uncovered behavioural tendencies or differences in other fields of endeavour.


Let me correct you: No such research has uncovered compelling data which shows that behavioural tendencies or differences in other fields of endeavour, particularly related to cognition, are necessarily distributed evenly among populations who evolved largely in isolation or with limited intermixing in vastly different environments over tens of thousands of years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o BNP is nothing more than Hittler/Stalin/Mussoline in disguise.
Shame on them, them do not honour the thousands of brave Brittish citizens and soldiers who died in WWII.


The British soldiers who fought in WWII (and those Britons who fought off invaders since the island's early history) did so to preserve their genes, their culture, and control over their own future. That is being compromised now as millions of nonwhite aliens flood into Europe, and the U.S.

I'll tell you what is a dishonor to those men: that the White Europeans alive today are giving up their lands without a fight, taking it lying down, and seemingly determined to make themselves a minority in Europe, and thus condeming their societies to failure.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ame crap that the Eugenics movement was propagating in the early 20th century

I suppose you prefer the dysgenic trend; ala:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he book contains a chapter on the dysgenic trend by which those of low IQ are having more offspring than those of high IQ. After summarizing the literature as (p. 341), "The professional consensus is that the United States has experienced dysgenic pressures throughout either most of the century (the optimists) or all of the century (the pessimists)," the discussion turns to data for the 90's. Current Population Survey data is used to show that the average number of children ever born to US women ages 35-44 in 1992 was 71% greater for high school dropouts than for college graduates. The new research reported using the NLSY shows that the average IQ of the mothers in the sample was less than 96. However, because many of the higher IQ women have not yet completed their childbearing, it is estimated that the overall IQ of American mothers was a little less than 98. This implies that a slow generation to generation decline in US IQ is to be expected.

A point not made in The Bell Curve is that the tendency for the high IQ to have fewer children appears more pronounced among women than among men. This is primarily because childbearing interferes more with schooling and careers among women than among men. Also, the higher status of high IQ men probably helps them get younger more fertile wives if they remarry, and helps them get more extramarital mating opportunities. Since children inherit genes from both parents, the dysgenic effect is a little weaker when both parents are considered.

There is an additional factor that is often neglected. The high IQ have their children later than the low IQ (partially because most women defer childbearing until their education is completed, and high IQ women seek higher level of education). The data from the NLSY shows that women in the top 5% for IQ have their first child at an average age of 27.2 years, while those in the bottom 5% have their first child at an average age of 19.8 years (p. 352). The difference is less for the average over all births, but it appears that those in the bottom 5% will complete 5 generations for every four generations completed by those in the top 5%.

...The discussion of differences in birthrates by ethnicity shows that the ethnic differences are much reduced when women of the same levels of education are compared (p. 353), with fertility declining in all three ethnic groups with education. A surprising finding is that after "assigning IQ equivalents based on the relationship of educational attainment and cognitive ability in the NLSY, it appears that after equating for IQ, black women at a given IQ level may have lower fertility rates than either white or Latino women" (p. 353). A footnote suggests that the fertility depressing effect of high IQ is due to the educational and career effects that accompany it, and suggests the lower black fertility may be because at any IQ level blacks are more likely to be in school.

A fascinating table (p. 354) shows the percentage of births to mothers of different ethnic groups among those in the NLSY (whose members have yet to complete their childbearing). Among whites 19% of the birth were to mothers with IQ's below 90, and 22% with IQ's above 110. However, for blacks 69% of the births were to mothers with IQ's below 90, and only 2% to mothers with IQ's above 110. This suggests that the racial differences will increase over time. Incidentally, for Latinos the figures were 64% and 2%.

A Review and Extension of The Bell Curve


Race matters. Keep Britain White. Vote BNP.
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Unread postby jato » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:23:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'M')ike Godwin can take Godwin's Law and blow it out his fat ass. This isn't a game you fuckwit.

If you want to stick up for the fascists and racists, do it upfront like a man. Don't hide behind some juvenile little game that you think we're all going to play along with.


Fascists and racists are people too! So are liberals and socialists! That being said, I don't see the BNP getting ready to invade Europe in a Nazi style takeover.

BTW, I missed the proof that links the BNP to racism. Care to repost the evidence?

I am of English decent with a little Native American thrown in for good measure. I don't see how anti-immigration equals racism.
Last edited by jato on Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:25:49, edited 1 time in total.
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