[some_guy282]

60 of Plame's workers died over this? I remember hearing the possibility people had died over this leak, but never anything concrete. Can you confirm this?

[EnemyCombatant]

I read somewhere it was 6 deep cover agents with years of investment to get to their position. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Ruppert covered this in Crossing the Rubicon. If it wasn't there, I read it from a reliable source. When Plame was outed, people just connected the dots to the other deep cover agents. Not only did patriots die, but their coveted intelligence positions died also.

[EnemyCombatant]

I found this blog which argues both sides of this topic. link

[SidneyTawl]

link Here is the info on what cooper did etc. I have only read some snips, from what I read it lays it out and does explain the timeline.

One intersesting note. Rove claims not to have used the name of Valerie Plame. Yada yada they say. BUT it is also stated in the article that Cooper asked for Rove not to be listed as a source NOR the Whitehouse, BUT and this is what I found interesting. He asked for another reporter to RUN IT BY THE CIA>

Oh yes Rove was given. Double secret agent status as a source. Too many people watch ANIMAL HOUSE way to often (':P') So why did cooper think the CIA needed to look at it. Of course the question is and they don't answer, WHY did he think it needed to be run by the CIA>, wait till the next issue.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SidneyTawl', 'O')ne intersesting note. Rove claims not to have used the name of Valerie Plame. Yada yada they say.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he key fact here is that Rove apparently talked to Cooper about Plame before Novak published his story. Cooper's notes and emails have time-stamps on them. However, Rove apparently told at least the FBI, and possibly also the grand jury, that he didn't speak to anyone about Plame until *after* Novak's article was published.
The prosecutor is going to be able to determine down to the minute, when Novak's story hit the wire, which is the earliest anyone could consider it published in any sense. If the story hit the wire before Cooper hit Send, then the shit is going to hit the fan for Rove.

[gg3]

Re. Rove's Clintonian "is":

Right. And if someone stands up on an airliner and says "I have something in my carryon that's going to make a GREAT BIG NOISE!" you can bloody well bet they're going to get charged with terrorism even if they didn't say the word "bomb."

EC, say more about that FTR story, I don't subscribe, so...

It's pretty clear that the Admin has pissed-off a lot of top-level career military as well as intel.

And I don't even think it's actively Bush's fault: I think what happens is he sets the tone of policy, and a bunch of opportunists and extremists see it as an open door to rush in and do whatever their fool heads come up with.

Where I would fault Bush over this is the stubbornness factor. In all probability there are some well-meaning people in the Admin who say "The Chief says do X, I know it's foolish but there's no point trying to change his mind..." And some who try their darndest to change minds where needed, but get nowhere, for example Colin Powell, who could probably get us an honorable and conclusive victory inside of two years if he had the authority to do things his way.

Meanwhile, Rove. And Miller. I don't think Cooper was engaged in treasonous behavior, but Miller probably yes, and Rove probably yes. I wonder if people in prison can write letters to other people in other prisons...?

[SidneyTawl]

Nixon was caught for telling his staff to do something (cover up the breakin) and then the staff went out and tried to do it. And we all know what happened. THat took years to do and wasn't quick.

Here we appear to have what looks like at least a decent case against Rove. Now all you have to do is get someone in the Whitehouse to rat on the Prez if he did do it. What you think the odds of that are. Nixon was only caught because of the tapes.

I doubt any US pres since then has taped all their meeting, and I bet few taped any at all. Anyone know. Love to listen to those Johnson tapes. Johnson was a vicious political animal, but he sure had a downhome way of looking at things.

[some_guy282]

Keep in mind that even if he is indicted, Bush can always pardon him.

[TheSupplyGuy]

And nothing would seem suspicious or out-of-place by that act?

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SidneyTawl', 'H')ere we appear to have what looks like at least a decent case against Rove. Now all you have to do is get someone in the Whitehouse to rat on the Prez if he did do it. What you think the odds of that are.

[some_guy282]

Check out this video of the press secretary being grilled by some reporters here. Pretty funny.

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'A')nd I don't even think it's actively Bush's fault:

[Roy]

yesterday, while watching headline news on CNN, the anchor man came right out and said that Rove was the leak. He said that Democratic leaders are calling for Bush to fulfill his promise to fire any Leakers in his administration.

Wow. Last week, the story was just another blurb scrolling past the bottom of the screen. I thought that would be the extent of it. That it would be swept under the rug like the Downing Street Memo, Bush's war record, et al. Following the comment about the Democratic leadership, the anchor pointed out the White House had no comment. What?

Ruminating further on the issue last night the thought occured to me that: Unlike so many other issues that have been neatly swept under the rug, this one has concrete proof linking Rove to the leak. Could this be a litmus test of sorts, to show the American people whether this administration believes themselves to be above the law? Could the Bush Admin sign its own death warrant by ignoring this like they have every other outrageous thing they've done.

I surely hope so. I believe this Admin is one of, if not the most corrupt and ill intentioned administrations in the history of this country. The fact that they play the evangelicals like a fiddle and try to pass themselves off as Christians makes it even more desireable that they should go down in flames. I already believe them to consider themselves above the law, but I consider myself more aware and informed than the average American. Then again. maybe my sample size of average americans is too small? Myabe I should say average Louisianians.

[some_guy282]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', ' ')Wow. Last week, the story was just another blurb scrolling past the bottom of the screen. I thought that would be the extent of it. That it would be swept under the rug like the Downing Street Memo, Bush's war record, et al.

[Eli]

I would lay money on it that Rove will not be punished at all. And GWB is not going to fire him. Unless the Republican party starts to call for his head nothing is going to happen to him.

[EdF]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'I') would lay money on it that Rove will not be punished at all. And GWB is not going to fire him. ... .

[Roy]

That's what pisses me off. They just brush it off. They're somehow above the law. And no one in this administration has been held accountable for their numerous blunders. The only people fired from the Bush cabinet have been those who dissent or speak out against policies. Those who make a stand on their principles are quickly jettisoned.

And the sheeple keep right on grazing, scarcely noticing what's happening. Most people I talk to have never heard of the Plame case and don't even know who Karl Rove is. AAAARRRGGHHH

There is little hope for this country until the masses awaken =IMO. And by then it may be too late.

[TheSupplyGuy]

Believe it or not, there are people outside of these forums aware of these issues. I've been fortunate enough to meet some of them. It's really a nice experience.
This story was on ABC World News Tonight. I find it ridiculous that Rove's defense is, "I didn't know her name, I just said it was Wilson's wife." To which Ambassador Wilson responds(whom I had the privilege of hearing at Charleston), "My wife is Mrs. Wilson. I only have one wife. Who else could it be?"
It's all so ridiculous.

[lorenzo]

In a shock result, Karl Marx has been voted the greatest ever philosopher following a poll in the BBC's In Our Time programme.

In the public's poll, which assessed 20 philosophers, Marx, author of the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital, got 27.93% of the 30,000 votes. In second place came David Hume with 12.67%, followed by Ludwig Wittgenstein with 6.8%. Plato trailed in fifth place and Socrates at eighth.

Andrew Chitty, who, at Sussex University, teaches the UK's only MA in Marxist philosophy, said: "This shows that philosophy should take Marxism seriously. It is possible he won because Marxists organised a mass vote; they're much more organised than Hegelians, for instance.

"But I think it's more likely that people understand that in this increasingly capitalist world Marx gives us the best vision with which to understand that world. Marx talks about capital in a philosophical way - he's unique in that."
--------

The world is full of surprizes. Even though many are predicting a comeback of Marxism on a global scale. And Marxism seems to be the only political theory that makes sense in a Peak Oil world!