[PhilBiker]

Actually if you pack 8 people into an SUV and use it as a mini commuting van they're quite practical.

[Leanan]

I think we should tax SUVs extra. They cost everyone money, even those who don't drive them.
Guardrail: We've had to completely redesign the bridge railings, guiderail, etc., because SUVs are so high they go right over the old design.
Side impacts: Many people have been unnecessarily injured and even killed by SUVs, because they are so high they come in over the hardened part of the chassis during collisions. This is especially true of side-impacts.
Delays at lights: A study in NYC estimated that each SUV on the roads costs an average of $5,000 in delays and increased traffic jams. This is because they are so high that people behind them can't see over them. At intersections, they have to wait until the SUV in front of them clears the intersection before they can make their turn, while with a passenger car, they could see over the vehicle.

Road wear: Heavier vehicles cause more wear and tear on the road, which we all have to pay.
Okay, it's clear that SUVs cause more problems than passenger cars. So SUV owners should pay more in taxes, right? But they don't, aside from fuel taxes on gas to feed the behemoths. SUVs are considered "light trucks." They don't have to meet the safety standards, emissions standards, or fuel efficiency standards of passenger vehicles.
Basically, we're all subsidizing SUV owners. If they want to drive them, fine - but they should pay the real cost of them.

[Devil]

Interestingly, I broke my right leg recently and was unable to drive with a cast. Some neighbours kindly offered to help us out (we live in a small village and there are no shops within walking distance and the nearest town is ~25 km distant). Naturally, we did not wish to impose on them, so we carefully planned our excursions, as much as possible to fit in with theirs. Apart from 3 visits to the orthopaedic surgeon for X-rays, casts, cast removal etc., my wife (who cannot drive for ophthalmic reasons) did 3 trips to the big supermarket in the 6+ weeks I was in a cast. In addition, she went 2 or 3 x/week for essential perishables (milk etc.) to a shop in the next village.
The total kilometrage we did over those 6+ weeks was about 200. Before my accident, over the same period of time, we would probably have done 150 km/week, on an average or the best part of 1000 km for the same functions.

Conclusion: careful planning and using the most local shops can save an enormous amount of fuel. Since I had the cast removed two weeks ago, I've not driven once to a town supermarket. We've learnt a lesson.
OK, I don't have an off-roader, but I do have a half-roader (Honda C-RV) with a 2 l engine. But I filled up for the first time yesterday and was shocked how much I had to pay (CYP 0.47/l = $3.30/US gal)

[Permanently_Baffled]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devil', ' ')But I filled up for the first time yesterday and was shocked how much I had to pay (CYP 0.47/l = $3.30/US gal)

[buster]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') think we should tax SUVs extra. They cost everyone money, even those who don't drive them.

[Cool Hand Linc]

The more money people make. The longer it will take to place people in the "I can't drive because of fuel costs" group.
I make more than the average and I don't want an SUV. I feel I am wise enough to see the writing on the 'gas pump'. Forget the crap of paying for gas. I want to fish and need new fishing line. Its all a matter of priorities. Fishing or driving a gas hog.
It's a no brainer to me.

[OilBurner]

As if SUVs weren't causing enough trouble: 4x4 kicks up a dust storm
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ust storms emanating from the Sahara have increased tenfold in 50 years, contributing to climate change as well as threatening human health and destroying coral reefs thousands of miles away.
And one major cause is the replacement of the camel by four-wheel drive vehicles as the desert vehicle of choice.
Andrew Goudie, professor of geography at Oxford University, blames the process of Toyotarisation - a coinage reflecting the near-ubiquitous desert use of Toyota Land Cruisers - for destroying a thin crust of lichen and stones that has protected vast areas of the Sahara from the wind for centuries.

[Devil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'D')oes the Devil himself make these vehicles?

[OilBurner]

:D

[hymalaia]

If (when) gas hits 3-4$ a gallon, there really isn't much you can do if you've already pumped 40K (if your lucky) into one of these beasts. Or worse, you have yet to pay the damn thing off. That's still really cheap for gasoline weighed against the cost of the vehicle, if it's making a noticable dent in your wallet, you couldn't have afforded the vehicle to begin with.

I don't think you can "blame" the SUV drivers for the vehicle they drive. Most were sucked into the purchase by marketing, which is so advanced it could have gotten anyone of us were we not fortunate enough to learn the truth before making such an investment. For example, many people own SUV's with family's for perceived safety, and up here in Massachusetts, to deal with the snow. It's logical if you think about it. I mean, we do get lots of snow and who isn't willing to pay top dollar to keep their family safe? But this is just mere psychological manipulation in order to make a sale. 4-wheel drive (Subaru's all wheel drive cars as well, I speak from experience) seems safer but they have the adverse effect of making the snow seem less of an obstacle than it really is. Driving these can make you over-confident, which can have disasterous effects when it comes to sharp turns or braking. 4wd does nothing to address these facts of daily driving.

Regarding the SUV epidemic. If you can't blame the poor driver who got sucked in by marketing, and you can't blame the rich bastard who can afford it, who can you blame? Why the free market of course! The governing ideological engine behind deceptive marketing, and the profits that drive companies to keep manufacturing inadequate product. I also think there is some issue of national pride at work. Let's face it, American cars just aren't up to snuff with Germany or Japan. But other than Toyota, American car companies have the upper hand when it comes to trucks and SUV's. It's part of our image, that Americans make good trucks. And in some cases, a good truck or SUV can be an invaluable tool. Just not most cases. Like I said, it's part of our "image" and that is why they are bought...

[larrydallas]

When the Japanese started importing trucks to the US in the late 50's the govt created some big time tariff for them to protect domestic manufacturers. The Japanese were crafty and decided to ship the Datsun and Toyota pickups up until the early 90's to the US without the bed bolted on to classify them as a commerical chasis and not a "truck". Now the Japanese have built factories in the USA to not have to deal with the import tax at all.

I think NAFTA is very unfair to names like Nissan and Toyota when they have ponied up billions to put Americans to work in factories while GM and Ford can lay off doestic workers and built cars in Mexico without having to pay an import tax for a car which is esemntially an import. The tax shelters and Cayman Island corporation mailing addresses are just like this corrution.

Anyway, the US has been a leader in the trucks business because the other buy was handicapped in every way possible for over 30 years. In the 90s what a compact toyota cost is what a V6 Chevy CK or F150 cost and gas was cheap so what do you figure happend to sales?

I do have to disagree about not blaming the buyer of the SUV for having bought it. A lot of people advertise products that are dangerous and it is up to us to make decision based on that but not that alone. If people were so stupid they would see a beer commercial with guys playing volleyball on a beach with girls and could decide they want to do the same and do it all of the time. People (most at least) do not quit their job, sell the house, and go play on the beach with a cold one for the rest of their lives. So, they should not be so influenced by the SUV marketing.

I do not think you have to be an engineer or even well educated to realize that if something heavy is put on a clumbsy truck chasis high off of the ground it is very unsafe. Ford Explorers and the Firestone tire scandal did not dent the sales of the SUV. That was a signal to me that we are on the brink of the end of modern civilization in our nation becasue when you have fact blantantly slap you in the face and tell you something but you go and do what it told you not to God help us.

Peak oil or not I think people in modern society are much more influenced with greater ease. They can be made to think anything is true of some classic conditioning and propoganda is used.

SAFE SAFE SAFE was the SUV battle cry.

Several Explorers roll over and kill/paralyze people with later internal Ford doccuments show they knew the SUV was unsafe.

A few years later all is forgotten and explorer sales thrive. Although I do have to give Ford credit for eliminating the live axel design for the rear end. I still would not be caught dead owning one but it is a HUGE improvement.

[hymalaia]

Interesting bit about Japanes companies and trucks. Like I said, the whole "American Co's make quality trucks" bit is an "image", and it suprises me very little to see how that image has come about...through government regulation... wasn't NAFTA supposed to encourage free-market trading? hmm... there we go again with that bullsh*t hypocritical concept....

As far as falling for marketing tactics, sorry but I think you underestimate how much power and influence these corporations have over the helpless, ill-informed consumer. Perhaps today, with things like the internet, the SUV craze would have been seen for what it is, but back in the late 80's when the whole thing began? We'd just come off one of the most affluent decades ever known, and had money to burn. Sure some of it was probably baby-boomers looking to stave off the effects of aging, but you can't blame a cultural problem like that on individuals. It's like saying, "crime happens in bad neighborhoods because the people who live there are more criminally inclined", and ignoring any economic consideration. This is the same thing, just looking at it from the opposite perspective on the economic spectrum.

Today I think people realize what a bunch of BS the whole SUV craze was, and as soliders die in Iraq, it becomes more glaring. But at the same time we are in kind of a denial. Wouldn't you be if you got hood-winked for one of those things? You wouldn't want to admit it to yourself let alone anyone else. It's much easier to just pretend there is no problem and enjoy your vehicle, after all, gas isn't THAT expensive, and Iraq is just part of the war on terror...right?

Now I'm not saying this mode of thinking is RIGHT, or that it isn't the symptom of a sick society that has some serious questions to tackle. But I can understand why someone would fall into such a trap... It's still very much a mainstream point of view, though not for too much longer.

[larrydallas]

Good points and I agree.

The SUV craze is just not safety hysteria. Some book I read a long time ago said it was fueled by an anti-social bahavior which involves excessive display of wealth, lack of consideration for others, and this me me me egocentrism.

The gist of it is that you want to show off to other people and say I can buy a mega buck SUV so in your face! Then, if you get in to a wreck you want to pretty much kill the other guy cause it is survival of the most fit.

I have to agree with that theory. Just look around you. People have tinted their SUV windows out so you don't even see them inside. Once they get home and the garage drops they are in complete isolation from the outside world. Neighbors who live next door to e/o for years never say anything to e/o except a hello and maybe a wave 1-3 times a month. The SUV is an indicator of more serious probelms in our culture where we want to make people have envy of us but at the same time we don't like other people so we do not want to associate with them.

It is pathetic.

[hymalaia]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he gist of it is that you want to show off to other people and say I can buy a mega buck SUV so in your face! Then, if you get in to a wreck you want to pretty much kill the other guy cause it is survival of the most fit.

[lowem]

Hmm. Just musing. How about looking at it from another angle : a family budgeting point of view. At how much % of the total household income will it cause "too much pain" to maintain an inefficient vehicle? And at how much% will it cause people to abandon their cars and switch to public transport?

If the household income is say 4K-5K per month when does the fuel cost blow the budget up? 1K per month? What's the quantum required?

Personally I'm paying up just over a hundred bucks a month. That's ... fine. Personally, if it goes up to five hundred, it might get a little stretched. Over a thousand, woohoo, hold it right there ...

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lowem', 'H')mm. Just musing. How about looking at it from another angle : a family budgeting point of view. At how much % of the total household income will it cause "too much pain" to maintain an inefficient vehicle? And at how much% will it cause people to abandon their cars and switch to public transport?

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'I') have always been amazed at friends who REFUSED to by a mini-van (itself not the greatest in fuel economy) because it was too "feminine." Man, these guys have a problem. Associating their masculinity with an automobile. Talk about buying into the likes of modern marketing. So instead they've got huge suburbans that in many cases don't even fit in their garages. What a waist.

[lotrfan55345]

Carpooling..hmm... isn't that "an-american". Thats what the french do.

[k_semler]

We do not need any French Fries, We have Freedom Fries!

[Canuck]

Gas prices? Small potatoes compared to the tax break that encourages people to buy SUVs.

http://www.hummerteam.com/news_story.asp?id=37