[Ibon]

We had a guest here who left us a vial of liquid morphine that he was prescribed by a doctor in Europe because he has this condition were his back seizes up and he becomes immobilized. At the end of his visit he left us the bottle and it sits in our fridge here since a year as an emergency if I have to bring a guest down our 4WD road who breaks a leg or has some painful trauma. There is no reason that we shouldn't all be able to have powerful pain killers like this available for emergency use without first having to go to doctors.

This got me thinking that the pharmaceutical and medical industry will be creating very powerful lobbies against any attempt to legalize opiates in the future as this will cut deeply into their profits. This is different than pot.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')e had a guest here who left us a vial of liquid morphine that he was prescribed by a doctor in Europe because he has this condition were his back seizes up and he becomes immobilized. At the end of his visit he left us the bottle and it sits in our fridge here since a year as an emergency if I have to bring a guest down our 4WD road who breaks a leg or has some painful trauma. There is no reason that we shouldn't all be able to have powerful pain killers like this available for emergency use without first having to go to doctors.

This got me thinking that the pharmaceutical and medical industry will be creating very powerful lobbies against any attempt to legalize opiates in the future as this will cut deeply into their profits. This is different than pot.

[onlooker]

"This is different than pot." Well, actually Ibon, Marijuana is also applicable for pain control and not only that is widely regarded as a "miracle" plant in fact used extensively by both North and South American Indians for centuries for it's marvelous healing properties. Finally, chemotherapy in my opinion from personal experience and anecdotes is not a adequate treatment for cancer, I believe marijuana would be more effective yet only now is the ban being slowly lifted. So pot really is part of this irrational, corrupt and counter-productive "War on Drugs"

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')hanks for the elaborate iteration summation Tanada. 6 wants more war on drugs because he believes doing something isn't working follows do more of the same thing til it works. The WaD is an abysmal failure all grown ups can admit.

[Sixstrings]

This article says 5% of all Americans have tried meth:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o sane person would argue that methamphetamine is natural or safe. It is neither. It was first synthesized in the 19th century, and has created nothing short of a plague in the U.S., especially in America’s “heartland.” Almost five percent of Americans have tried the drug, which is highly addictive.
http://www.science20.com/american_council_on_science_and_health/the_agony_of_the_ecstasy-156780

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I'm talking about crack and meth and heroin and ecstasy etc

[onlooker]

First 6, I am glad like me you are empathetic to the victims of the drug business. I am also happy to know that Bernie Sanders also thinks the War on Drugs has been a failure. Everyone wants a solution but for how many years have we been fighting this sham of a war with little to show for it. Phased legalization along with universal treatment seems to me would be the answer for short and long term. Legalization would immediately take the criminal element out of the picture as prices would fall drastically and the whole narcotics underground trading model would fall by the wayside. Then addicts would be instructed and encouraged to visit hospitals and other clinics where they would be registered and become inpatients so they could be treated for their addiction. Now some would say oh that cost alot of money. Okay we spend alot of money on military and also on keeping people alive who would otherwise die, those are two areas where we could re-prioritize out spending. Finally we would maintain the legality of these narcotics but they would be strictly controlled in terms of their sale and distribution mostly they would be on a prescription basis. Now 6 I do not have all the answers but I do know this would be a heck of alot better then what we have now.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')eth is a different ballgame IMO, but I don't know enough about it to say much.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')eth is a different ballgame IMO, but I don't know enough about it to say much.

[onlooker]

Yes Hawk I by no means was referring to those who really are entitled because of being disabled or such. In fact, I was somewhat outraged by apparently a new legislation I forgot which state, which wishes to make drug testing a requirement to receive things like food stamps. Hey, just because these people are addicted to some substance should not disqualify them from receiving this help. In fact precisely because of their situation they should be helped, in fact by helping them you may be reducing to some degree the drug problem so people do not resort to drug dealing to survive. I just am appalled how drug addicts are being treated in this country. They are sick but we treat them like the worst of criminals. So sad.

[Sixstrings]

@onlooker
I would agree that there should be free of charge rehabs, in the red states, which they do not have. So there's no way to get off the drugs, and the problem just spreads.

And then poverty and joblessness and hopelessness should be addressed too, which is at the root of the "crack heads" and "meth heads" problem.

So okay, but what I don't understand is 30,000 people at a Sanders rally and all they want to hear is "we must end the war on drugs!"

The best thing I can figure out is that people just want marijuana to be legal, well okay then let's do that, but one can't forget about the hard drugs and just accept it like it's ok.

Or, if it stayed at a certain low level low boil then okay people accept it, but when it gets to "crisis" and "scourge" proportions then yeah you need the po-po cracking down on the meth labs because if you don't then you just have a bunch of methheads all over town and that is not good for a community, at all.

[onlooker]

Yes 6, that is the whole point of this radical proposal of legalization. Nobody wants crazed drug addicts near them or all the corresponding criminal activity. So I do not think anyone in this country is happy about the drug situation which is really what those rallies you describe are about. Those people are NOT saying do not do nothing about drugs just stop this ineffective sham and do things that really will make the whole situation better. As it is nobody is winning except maybe the high up criminals and their accessories or accomplices (politicians, drug enforcement agencies, banks, CIA etc.) Yes I have read about the whole corrupt network made possible by the huge amounts of money. At some point one would have thought smart people in government would have found out how best to deal with the drug problem, but they "really" do not want to, too much money involved.

[SeaGypsy]

Onlooker, Shabu is a Japanese word for quick. The term is used for ice (nothing to do with methane except sharing two elements) crystal methamphetamine, throughout SE Asia, where it has been common for at least 20 years.

I have tried almost every illicit drug. Ice included, 5 times in 25 years. At no point was I at risk of becoming a long term user of any hard drug, I don't have that constitution.

I have had friends lives ruined by ice. One friend is in her early 30's, an emergency medical doctor, ultra high functioning. She was 2 years into her addiction when a raid on her share house swept her up. Charged, she was put on a strict testing regime, weekly urine & random blood. She failed by cheating once then by random blood test again. She has since been 2 years out of work, on a testing regime, awaiting an appeal to the medical board. She has to resit her final exams for each subject, plus pass character & psychological requirements. I already know she will fail the last part, because spending 15 minutes with her it becomes obvious she is still damaged. I can encourage her to get back on track, she is brilliant & it is a huge waste what has happened to her, but nobody can undo the holes in her brain from sustained ice use.

If ice were legal, this friend of mine would have got help much sooner & would very likely have kept her career, of great benefit to the society & herself.

6, I suggest you go out & have a look how piss easy it is to get hard drugs. With extremely serious sentences for even petty trafficking, you can still score the hardest of hard drugs easily in probably every state capital of the USA. The war is a sham AND the laws don't work. They don't prevent drugs or addiction. It is time to do something completely else.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '6'), I suggest you go out & have a look how piss easy it is to get hard drugs. With extremely serious sentences for even petty trafficking, you can still score the hardest of hard drugs easily in probably every state capital of the USA. The war is a sham AND the laws don't work. They don't prevent drugs or addiction. It is time to do something completely else.

[yeahbut]

Six, the point with all these drugs, the ones with nasty outcomes for a lot of people included, is that even tho they are illegal, they are still used/abused. The illegality does not stop the use, and the associated problems. It doesn't work. You know what they say about doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results, right? That's drug prohibition. It just doesn't work.

From reading your posts on the subject, it seems that what most concerns you is that drug use needs to stay illegal because 1) lots of people use drugs already and if they were legal consumption would skyrocket, and 2) the nasty drugs that really screw a lot of people up would become an even bigger problem if they were legalised.

I maintain that those postions are not easy to hold if you do much research into the topic. The reason I mentioned the decriminalisation of all drugs in Portugal before is that it shows the things you are concerned about didn't happen when decriminalisation occured. Use did not skyrocket, and the use of shite like 'bath salts' is much lower than in countries with illegal drugs. As far as I can find out, methamphetamine is no more an issue there than anywhere else either.

My question to you then is: why would someone who is concerned about the problems associated with drug abuse wish to continue with a system that does not work, and that costs a fortune and causes immeasurable harm to society by making drug use a criminal, rather than a health issue? Why would you not want to try a different approach, especially when there is ongoing evidence to show that a different approach works better?

nb: the Portugese system is just one way decriminalisation could be approached of course, as SG says it will be far too state controlled and interfering for some tastes, or even not enough for others. It could be implemented in any number of ways.

[SeaGypsy]

6, its because you are brainwashed & so are the neighbourhood. An eagle eye or junkies view would show you & them what really happens- a new drug house opens up, possibly more. A dealer goes down, his dealer needs a new distributer as much as the junkies need their fix. They will find each other. Endless rinse & repeat is the reality.

(If you are going to engage in debate, "all I know is" is not valid rebuttal, try to look beyond your preconceptions. The fact is you are typically naive & ignorant about drugs & you take a shoot from the hip blabbermouth approach to debate. Try learning something.)

[onlooker]

6, I will try one more time to explain what I and Sea are talking about. The point is these people are addicted to a substance forgot for a moment legal or not legal. If you are addicted you are going to try for your next fix that is a given. Once the Gov declares the legalization of these hardcore drug simultaneously clinics will come online which have been prepared before hand. National broadcasts would inform all where to go for treatment. No risk of imprisonment or anything like that, they will be treated as sick people. This legalization will take crime out of the equation. So that in in itself will be a great benefit for society. Then the rehabilitation of these drug addicts will re-introduce productive people into society. Maybe not 100% perfect but again orders of magnitude better then what we have now.

[SeaGypsy]

On Trump thread 1 of 4 he started(?) 6 is suggesting pouring military aid into Mexico to 'defeat' the cartels. He is really that ignorant. There is only one way to defeat the cartels & that is to take a monopoly on their market, remove the profit factor, starve them of funds. The only way that can happen is some form of legalization.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'O')n Trump thread 1 of 4 he started(?) 6 is suggesting pouring military aid into Mexico to 'defeat' the cartels. He is really that ignorant. There is only one way to defeat the cartels & that is to take a monopoly on their market, remove the profit factor, starve them of funds. The only way that can happen is some form of legalization.

[SeaGypsy]

Money & arms. Same as Obamas last attempt. 6 is being an idiot.