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Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth It

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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 17:19:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', '
')Consumption taxes are the most regressive form of taxation, the more of your net income you spend on consumption the higher your effective tax rate. It's most notable impact will be to make the poor even poorer.


Not a problem if you provide a tax credit to low income people. Ontario, Canada single residents can get up to a $265 HST tax credit per year (paid quarterly) and up to a $281 sales tax credit from the provincial government. Considering that some of the essential living costs such as rent and food are not subject to sales tax, the tax credits should more than compensate for any sales tax a low income person has actually paid.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 20:58:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yellowcanoe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', '
')Consumption taxes are the most regressive form of taxation, the more of your net income you spend on consumption the higher your effective tax rate. It's most notable impact will be to make the poor even poorer.


Not a problem if you provide a tax credit to low income people.


Actually, it is a problem with carbon taxes.

The whole point of a carbon tax is to make fossil fuels so expensive that people will use less of them. Giving people a tax credit to offset the carbon tax defeats the whole purpose of the carbon tax.

------------------

Low income people who take the bus aren't going to have to pay any carbon tax anyway. Rich people like Al Gore who drive expensive imported cars and fly in private jets and own multiple houses will have to pay lots of carbon tax. Thats completely fair.

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A carbon tax is completely fair---the more carbon you emit, the more tax you pay.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 21:38:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'N')ot me. I put in solar because a) I had extra money and I thought it was the correct thing to do. b) I knew that I'd make the money back in the future. But that wasn't the point of my post, it was to respond to your "consumption still has to rise. " Consumption does not rise, not in the long term. My investment is depreciated and the savings/solar-gain keeps on coming. :)


If we can assume that investments in general are chosen because they are "the correct thing to do" and not because they offer a better return, then I'd believe you.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby AndyA » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 21:40:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'W')ithout FF our economy is dead, so for most people climate change is a price worth paying.


Most people? Says who? Our economy depends on growth due to the current mechanics of money creation. And that benefits a select few bankers over states and citizens. I think most people would prefer a decent world for their children over this system.


Oh yeah sure, we would all love to live in a paradise, and leave an even better one for our children. However actions speak louder then words, and the reality is that most people on the planet are responsible for burning FF. To opt out of the economy, and off of FF, means living in the hills like a caveman, and there are FA people doing that. You are kidding yourself if you think the bankers and elites are the only ones who benfit. Got some nice clothes? Got a nice house? Got some nice transportation? etc.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 21:53:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'T')o opt out of the economy, and off of FF, means living in the hills like a caveman


Not really. Consider APPLE. You've heard of APPLE, right? Macs? How about Iphones, Ipods, Ipads?

Apple is moving all their facilities off FF, and onto renewable energy. They are currently at 75% renewable energy and on target to be at 100% renewables in a few years.

ImageRE means working at Apple and living in the Palo Alto hills like a caveman? OK---but that house in the hills will cost you a couple of million bucks!!!!
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 21:54:30

Some sort of carbon tax is necessary.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of the reasons to be hopeful comes from a Carbon Disclosure Project (CDP) report which indicates that at least 29 big American corporations are actively preparing for a carbon tax. The companies in the CDP report include powerhouses like American Electric Power, ConAgra Foods, Delta Air Lines, Duke Energy, DuPont, Google, General Electric, Microsoft, Walmart, Walt Disney and Wells Fargo.

What is most surprising is that this list also includes five major oil companies (BP, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, ExxonMobil, and Shell). While they can hardly be called champions of a low-carbon economy, they are, if nothing else, economic realists. They see the writing on the wall, and their actions are a strong indication that they see some form of carbon tax as inevitable.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')enefits of price on carbon far outweigh cost

The most frequently cited argument against carbon pricing and carbon taxes is the cost. According to the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, the introduction of a carbon tax could cause fossil fuel companies to lose between $9 trillion an $12 trillion in profits by the end of the century. That is because a carbon tax would drive up costs and decrease demand, as the demand was reduced the prices would fall.

However, the Potsdam Research indicates that the cost to fossil fuel companies would be more than compensated for by carbon taxes (or carbon auction revenues). Their analysis reveals that such taxes would generate revenues equaling $21 trillion to $32 trillion by the end of the century. That translates to a net economic benefit of around $20 trillion, in addition to potentially staving off the worse impacts of climate change and providing citizens with cleaner air and water. The profits from carbon taxes could be used for green-energy projects and climate adaptation efforts.


But I'm not sure what it will look like. An optimal international carbon tax might look like this.

Image

The chart shows what the carbon tax would be in both USD and Euros based on what is called the “discount rate.” Discounting is an economics concept that takes into account the fact that future generations will be wealthier than we are. If they are far wealthier (high discount rate) it makes sense to spend less mitigating climate change (so the tax is low). If they will be just about as wealthy (low discount rate) then the tax should be very high (the far left of the chart).

Alternatively, as yellowcane mentioned, the poor in each country could get a tax credit or a Fee and Dividend (see other types of taxes).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nother type of tax is a fee and dividend, where the money collected from the tax is returned equitably to all households, effectively taxing carbon emitters and rebating those that burn less carbon
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby drgoodword » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 03:29:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I') think most people would prefer a decent world for their children over this system.


When speaking globally, most people don't know about Climate Change, and of those that know about it, many don't think it's a serious problem.

Check out Wikipedia's Climate Change Opinion By Country. The people of India & China, comprising almost two-thirds of the world's population, don't seem to be anywhere near to getting on the Climate Change bandwagon.

I think we too often forget that with both Climate Change and Peak OIl, we are dealing with highly complex globally systemic paradigm shifts that are, from a historical perspective, completely outside the range of general human prognostic cognition. I've come to believe that the most significant aspect and benefit of longer-term major change global-event modelling is the social, political and economic impetus it will give the future generations tasked with having to rethink, resize and rebuild after these major catastrophes have made enormous and undeniable impacts. Of course, with regards to Climate Change, many would bring up the issue of "point of no return", and they may indeed prove to be right. However, just as many smokers need to get that heart attack or cancer diagnosis before they quit for good and take a serious swing at overcoming their health catastrophe and regaining some measure of good health, I think the majority of mankind can only take Climate Change (and Peak Oil) seriously after a truly substantial and destructive global crisis. Until then, the rational prophets of doom should just continue to soberly communicate their findings and strategies, and have both confidence and hope that these will one day gratefully be put to good use.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Strummer » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 06:53:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'A')pple is moving all their facilities off FF, and onto renewable energy. They are currently at 75% renewable energy and on target to be at 100% renewables in a few years.


This only concerns Apple corporate facilities, so it's pretty meaningless. Apple is just a shell company, with a few thousand "real" corporate employees. Everything else is retail (mostly US) and a gigantic outsourced supply and manufacturing chain, and neither of those is included in the renewables push.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 11:57:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'A')pple is moving all their facilities off FF, and onto renewable energy. They are currently at 75% renewable energy and on target to be at 100% renewables in a few years.


This only concerns Apple corporate facilities, so it's pretty meaningless. Apple is just a shell company, with a few thousand "real" corporate employees. Everything else is retail (mostly US) and a gigantic outsourced supply and manufacturing chain, and neither of those is included in the renewables push.


Not true.

For instance, the new apple manufacturing facility in Mesa, under construction now, will be 100% renewable energy.

AndyA's claim that using renewable energy means returning to the stone age clearly isn't true. Apple is just one example of this. 8)
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 12:04:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'A')nother type of tax is a fee and dividend, where the money collected from the tax is returned equitably to all households, effectively taxing carbon emitters and rebating those that burn less carbon


The point of a carbon tax is not to subsidize fossil fuel use. Giving rebates to the poor who "burn less carbon" will just encourage them to burn more carbon.

The poor should be relying 100% on mass transit anyway, where they won't have to pay any carbon tax anyway. It isn't going to help the climate to subsidize the poor to keep driving old clunkers that get poor mpg and emit excess CO2.

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Dude...I'm poor---give me a carbon rebate so I can afford to drive my ride
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby AndyA » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 13:30:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'T')o opt out of the economy, and off of FF, means living in the hills like a caveman


Not really. Consider APPLE. You've heard of APPLE, right? Macs? How about Iphones, Ipods, Ipads?

Apple is moving all their facilities off FF, and onto renewable energy. They are currently at 75% renewable energy and on target to be at 100% renewables in a few years.

ImageRE means working at Apple and living in the Palo Alto hills like a caveman? OK---but that house in the hills will cost you a couple of million bucks!!!!

Yes I have heard of apple, no I didn't realise the plastic came from renewable, and the metal components were mined and refined using renewables. I didn't realise the renewable energy devices were manufactured using renewable. I thought they were just a benefit of FF use. WOW you really proved to me that using an iPad means you are off FF and not living like a caveman. I really should check my facts first.

I'll admit to having very few ethics, but even I draw the line at giving a big thumbs up to mindless consumerism and slave labour by purchasing apple crap.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 13:58:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')I didn't realise the ... metal components were mined and refined using renewables.


Thats because they're not. But mining can be done using purely electric heavy equipment. Thats how mining was done in the early 20th century.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'y')ou really proved to me that using an iPad means you are off FF and not living like a caveman.


Ok….whatever. Thats not what I said. If you'll calm down and re-read it you'll get the point.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'I') draw the line at giving a big thumbs up to mindless consumerism and slave labour by purchasing apple crap.


And I draw the line at believing that oil is an unlimited resource that will never run short so we don't have to start shifting to alternative fuels. :idea:
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby AndyA » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 18:26:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')I didn't realise the ... metal components were mined and refined using renewables.


Thats because they're not. But mining can be done using purely electric heavy equipment. Thats how mining was done in the early 20th century.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'y')ou really proved to me that using an iPad means you are off FF and not living like a caveman.


Ok….whatever. Thats not what I said. If you'll calm down and re-read it you'll get the point.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'I') draw the line at giving a big thumbs up to mindless consumerism and slave labour by purchasing apple crap.


And I draw the line at believing that oil is an unlimited resource that will never run short so we don't have to start shifting to alternative fuels. :idea:


There is a big difference between building a building then powering it with electricity from wind solar whatever, and opting out of the FF using economy. Though you seem to think that apple has opted out of the FF using economy because they are "on the way to 100% renewable energy." Give me a break. People like the benefits of FF, much more then they want a non climate change planet. The evidence is right in front of your face. Let me know when you stop enjoying all the benefits of FF, you can call me from your iPhone.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 18:53:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'A')nother type of tax is a fee and dividend, where the money collected from the tax is returned equitably to all households, effectively taxing carbon emitters and rebating those that burn less carbon


The point of a carbon tax is not to subsidize fossil fuel use. Giving rebates to the poor who "burn less carbon" will just encourage them to burn more carbon.

The poor should be relying 100% on mass transit anyway, where they won't have to pay any carbon tax anyway. It isn't going to help the climate to subsidize the poor to keep driving old clunkers that get poor mpg and emit excess CO2.

Image
Dude...I'm poor---give me a carbon rebate so I can afford to drive my ride


F and D was just an example. Not sure how the final carbon tax will take shape but such a tax was recently discussed by Democrats running for governor in Boston.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ll five Democratic gubernatorial candidates on Thursday stressed the importance of energy efficiency and promoting clean technology, even as they took slightly different approaches to government’s role.

The candidates – Treasurer Steve Grossman, Attorney General Martha Coakley, biotech executive Joe Avellone, former Homeland Security official Juliette Kayyem and former Medicare and Medicaid administrator Don Berwick – met for a forum on clean technology, sponsored by Next Step Living, a company that does home energy assessments, and moderated by Bob Buderi, founder and CEO of Xconomy, an online publication that covers clean technology. Organizers said Republican Charlie Baker was invited but had a scheduling conflict.

Avellone used the event to announce that he will support a carbon tax. “I am advocating for and will push for a carbon tax, a price on carbon that will show the true cost of using fossil fuels and drive large behavioral change, so long as it's revenue neutral,” Avellone said.

The carbon tax would be revenue neutral with corresponding reductions in personal and corporate income taxes and the creation of low income tax credits.

In an interview, Avellone said he does not think voluntary efforts or loose caps will be enough to hit the state’s goals for reducing carbon emissions. “The one thing that will change behavior is a tax, as long as we make it revenue neutral and we don’t harm the economy,” Avellone said.

The only other candidate to support a carbon tax during the forum was Berwick, who said he supports a carbon tax, a cap and trade system and doubling the state’s investment in clean energy from 0.6 percent of the budget to 1.2 percent. “We need to see the cost of carbon we’re putting in the atmosphere,” Berwick said.

Kayyem, after the event, told The Republican / MassLive.com that she supports a carbon tax as long as it can be done in a revenue neutral way and does not have a disparate impact on car-dependent communities.

Coakley and Grossman were more measured in their responses, when asked about a carbon tax after the event.

Grossman said he is “actively looking at” it. “One of the things I will insist on, however, if we implement a carbon tax… is it needs to protect the low and middle income families,” Grossman said, referring to families earning up to $60,000 a year. “If it’s not done in the right way it can affect those families disproportionately.”
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 19:44:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'y')ou seem to think that apple has opted out of the FF using economy.


I didn't say that. I simply pointed out that they are shifting their own facilities to renewable energy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')People like the benefits of FF, much more then they want a non climate change planet. The evidence is right in front of your face.


It doesn't matter what people like. Peak Oil and Climate Change will affect things to such a degree that people will have to change their habits. The evidence for that is right in front of your face.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')Let me know when you stop enjoying all the benefits of FF, you can call me from your iPhone.


Of course you and I and everybody else likes the benefits of FF. Congrats on noticing the obvious.

But you aren't guaranteed the benefits of FF forever. Most scientists predict that Climate Change will affect things to such a degree that most people will have to change their habits to use less FF. Peak Oil will also drive the world to use less FF. Who knows, AndyA.... maybe even you'll have to adapt to some unforeseen changes and cut your own FF use someday. When that day comes, I hope you'll give me a call on your iphone and we can chat more about it. :)

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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby AndyA » Thu 13 Feb 2014, 23:19:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'A')ndyA's claim that using renewable energy means returning to the stone age clearly isn't true. Apple is just one example of this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', 'y')ou seem to think that apple has opted out of the FF using economy.

I didn't say that. I simply pointed out that they are shifting their own facilities to renewable energy.

Well I'm not sure what your point is then, apple is no more removed from FF then any other business, so not even worth mentioning. They are getting electricity from R.E. BFD, the RE comes from FF.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t doesn't matter what people like. Peak Oil and Climate Change will affect things to such a degree that people will have to change their habits. The evidence for that is right in front of your face.

Two different concepts there PO, is not voluntary, so people will have to change, as to climate change it's more of a 'should change' concept. It's entirely possible that coal and gas consumption could continue to rise post PO.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')maybe even you'll have to adapt to some unforeseen changes and cut your own FF use someday.

No doubt there will be unforeseen changes, and I'm well on the way to cutting my own FF usage.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Most scientists predict that Climate Change will affect things to such a degree that most people will have to change their habits to use less FF.
Where did you read that? People will have to change their habits, or should change their habits? :)
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 14 Feb 2014, 00:02:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')apple is no more removed from FF then any other business, so not even worth mentioning.


Apple currently gets 75% of its power from renewable sources. That means solar, hydro, wind. Apple is shooting to reach 100% renewable in a few more years at which time it would use no energy from Fossil fuels in its own facilities. Get it now?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AndyA', ' ')PO, is not voluntary, so people will have to change, as to climate change it's more of a 'should change' concept.


It depends on the nature of the climate change and its knock-on effects. Its quite possible that climate change will force numerous involuntary changes as well. For instance, if AGW causes sea level to rise 1-2 meters, people living in many low-lying coastal communities will have to move. If California's drought goes on year after year, it will force many farmers out of business because they will have no water.

Climate change isn't a "should change" concept----the changing climate will force changes in rainfall resulting in droughts, snow cover, stream flow, length of seasons, distribution of plants, agriculture, shorelines, storm intensities, Arctic sea ice cover and many other things.

Image
Some of the impacts of climate change
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby AndyA » Fri 14 Feb 2014, 11:42:10

My house gets 100% of its electricity from renewable, there are even big cities that do the same, have done for decades. They are no more removed from the FF economy then anywhere else.

There are plenty of reasons why CC could cause an increased demand for energy, yes people will change habits, but not necessarily reduce FF consumption.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Strummer » Fri 14 Feb 2014, 13:11:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'A')pple currently gets 75% of its power from renewable sources. That means solar, hydro, wind. Apple is shooting to reach 100% renewable in a few more years at which time it would use no energy from Fossil fuels in its own facilities. Get it now?


Yes, we get it. US companies outsourced all their manufacturing to Asia and now can boast how eco-friendly the few offices and datacenters left in the US are. Please, come back when the whole Apple product lifecycle is 75% renewable, because that's what really matters. And no, a tiny glass-manufacturing US-based facility which comprises about 0,1% of the product lifecycle does not matter either.
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Re: Economist Says Best Climate Fix A Tough Sell, But Worth

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 14 Feb 2014, 14:21:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', 'U')S companies outsourced all their manufacturing to Asia and now can boast how eco-friendly the few offices and datacenters left in the US are…. Apple ....


Please take a second to double check your posts for errors--you're getting basic facts wrong. For instance, (1) Apple is building a manufacturing center right now in Mesa, Az. And (2) yes, it will be run on 100% renewable power. And (3) no, it doesn't manufacture glass.

Apple manufacturing center under construction in Arizona
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