[SeaGypsy]

I call BS on 'foamed glass heat shield capable of rail gun speeds protecting a solid temperature restricted vessel' KJ calls 'Liar' on Google.
If we all knew how to read books, we would know what KJ knows lol.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')here is no such thing as glass which will NOT LIQUEFY before reaching 2300 degrees C. Foamed or otherwise. The stuff would be peeling off like talcum at rail gun speeds. Then there is that danged plasma drive.

[SeaGypsy]

So a 30 km rail gun fires an object into space and it's insulation requirement will be comparable to the Space Shuttle? And you claim to be an engineer? Computer engineer isn't it? Not a lot to do with thermodynamics- my forte is the original thermodynamic precision science- ceramics and glass.

[Subjectivist]

Actually for simple cargo like freeze dried food or specialty chemicals like rocket refueling supplies orbital guns have been proposed many times. After all you only need to get what, 7000 meters per second of velocity to get into orbit and a properly designed cannon can do that. Strictly for cargo though, a human would be turned to jelly by the accelleration on firing.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'T')his is a useless debate. I don't actually care whether it was pure iridium or iridium in stone. All of the heavy elements on the Earth's crust came from meteorites that struck after the core cooled and the crust formed.

All those elements are present in space. Metals, gases, water, hydrocarbons, and unlimited solar power.

We have all the knowledge, all the technology we need to explore space. We are in the development stage.

For an example of a space transportation system that requires nothing but electricity, I refer you to the Heinlein novel "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress". Electromagnet catapults are used to send capsules of food from the Lunar colony farms to Earth.

Those of you who still have doubts: I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I think most of you have closed minds on this matter, and are pre-judging without even honestly examining the possibilities.

Our Solar System has all the raw materials, all the energy, and all the space that humans need to live. We know everything we need to know to build in space. In the end, the only thing stopping us is the opposition of closed minded people.

YOU get to decide whether your mind is closed or not. Let me point out that if you failed to examine the book I pointed you at, it is likely that you already decided long ago.

The thing is that perma-culture, agrarian farming methods, environmental consciousness, worshiping a living planet, etc. etc. is no form of an answer either. If we had thought the issues through and if the people of the entire Earth had understood what was at stake and what the path to human salvation was, then we could have saved this planet as late as 200 years ago.

I go to work every day, I log on and I do my best to keep our entire world working. I care for the computers that enable Internet commerce, credit cards, stock exchanges, and all forms of virtual electronic money. That is just my personal role, there are millions of people like me, striving constantly to keep the world in business. Collectively we make it possible for 7.3B humans to live and eat and reproduce. In the last 200 years, we have all of us working together been enormously successful.

The wife and I were remarking on the air pollution here in Silicon Valley this morning. It subsequently proved to be that there was a large grass fire South of the valley and the smoke was blowing North. Then a caller on the radio mentioned that if Climate Change were not occurring, this would not be happening - it is not often that fire season here persists into late October, but there has been only trace amounts of rain so far this year.

Then of course, that person blamed "Big Oil". Naturally. He was in his car, burning fuel and spewing partially burned hydrocarbons into the air, and it was someone else's fault. He was also breaking the law and endangering those around him by talking on what was almost certainly a "hands free" cell phone - still illegal, but very unlikely that you will be caught, especially if you keep the little earpiece in your right ear where nobody can see it. But he gave only a first name and he got away with it.

For just a moment, let me speak on behalf of those of us who are still working to keep things going.

Stop telling us we cannot possibly succeed. If you have a better plan, one that allows all the various peoples of the Earth to prosper, then let us hear it.

DON'T give me this crap about organic vegetables and the benefits of manure. Your farming methods if adopted today could feed a quarter of the people already in the US, but only if we ended food exports that keep others alive. Don't give me twaddle about Solar Power, when I frequently work until after dark, then have to grocery shop, cook, and do laundry after dark.

If you have actual beneficial ideas that would help the rest of us, then let's hear them. If you just want to tell other people that what they are proposing can never work, then why don't you go and take a long walk off a short pier, with pockets full of rocks.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'A')gain, I have to point out that there is a REAL WORLD that differs from the VIRTUAL WORLD you are immersed in. You should be living in the real world.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'A')lso the term 'conspiracy theorist' is nothing but double talk hogwash.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'A')lso the term 'conspiracy theorist' is nothing but double talk hogwash.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')here is no such thing as glass which will NOT LIQUEFY before reaching 2300 degrees C. Foamed or otherwise. The stuff would be peeling off like talcum at rail gun speeds. Then there is that danged plasma drive.

[Newfie]

From you lips to Gods ears! It would be a relief.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', 'A')ctually for simple cargo like freeze dried food or specialty chemicals like rocket refueling supplies orbital guns have been proposed many times. After all you only need to get what, 7000 meters per second of velocity to get into orbit and a properly designed cannon can do that. Strictly for cargo though, a human would be turned to jelly by the accelleration on firing.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') can't find any reference to it ever having been done...

[AgentR11]

That was what I was reading as well. No where near the velocities required for LEO...

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')hat was what I was reading as well. No where near the velocities required for LEO...

[AgentR11]

But that's sorta my point, that there's always been these big and bold plans and designs, but when push comes to shove, the designs are not brought into reality. And maybe I can accept a bit of collusion or resistance within the US or Europe getting in the way of a new(rather old) launch tech; but neither the Chinese nor Russians would hesitate if they felt it could make the step to LEO.

And its not that I dislike railguns. I think a railgun mounted on a nuclear powered ship could prove all kinds of effective in a number of combat roles.

Maybe, as you note, the age of micro satellites will bring the railgun back into the picture, but.. I can't help but wonder about the economics, we must lift heavy stuff in a box to the ISS, that box will always have room for some number of micro satellites and ISS mountable experiments. Are there really enough desired micro satellite projects to make the economics of a railgun work in comparison with adding a kilo here and a kilo there to a cargo lift?

In the end, we've had the tech for at least 30yrs. And yet, as far as I can tell, no one has ever put a projectile into LEO with a railgun. I don't think that's just an accident.

[KaiserJeep]

You mean you don't think it's an accident that a 30 km long railgun with the muzzle located on top of a high mountain near the equator has been built? The estimates I have heard are around $6.5 Billion US$, about evenly divided between the railgun itself and the nuclear power plant. The estimate does not include any allowance to purchase the real estate or construct roads or railroads to the remote area.

I suppose if we wanted to, we could list LOTS of multi-billion dollar projects that have yet to be built.

I remember when the STS (i.e. the Shuttle) was sized as a $29B program. In the end it cost $209B, over 7X the initial estimate. It is unlikely that private investors would take such a risk, some government would have to make it a priority.

In comparison, Virgin Galactic will probably become operational with less than $1B in funding.

[vision-master]

Third Reich - Operation UFO (Nazi Base In Antarctica) Complete Documentary

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') suppose if we wanted to, we could list LOTS of multi-billion dollar projects that have yet to be built.

I remember when the STS (i.e. the Shuttle) was sized as a $29B program. In the end it cost $209B, over 7X the initial estimate. It is unlikely that private investors would take such a risk, some government would have to make it a priority.

[vision-master]

In the Sanskrit Samaraanganasutraadhaara it is written:

Strong and durable must the body of the Vimana be made, like a great flying bird of light material. Inside one must put the mercury engine with its iron heating apparatus underneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky. The movements of the Vimana are such that it can vertically ascend, vertically descend, move slanting forwards and backwards. With the help of the machines human beings can fly in the air and heavenly beings can come down to earth.

http://veda.wikidot.com/ancient-sanskri ... -ufo-visit

"European scholarship regards human civilization as a recent progression starting yesterday with the Fiji islander, and ending today with Rockefeller, conceiving ancient culture as necessarily half savage culture." It is a superstition of modern thought that the march of knowledge has always been linear." "Our vision of "prehistory" is terribly inadequate. We have not yet rid our minds from the hold of a one-and-only God or one-and-only Book, and now a one-and-only Science."

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

[KaiserJeep]

Well, note that the EM catapult is a way of accessing space that utilizes electricity. It does not require that one burn a ton or more of explosive fuel for each pound put into orbit, and it can be used over and over for decades. I don't think it is any less likely or possible than SSTO or further development of chemical fueled boosters. It is one scheme that can be used with very low operating costs, no need for exotic spacecraft construction (steel cans are all you need) and has low environmental impact since there is no exhaust.

Obviously it will have doubters until the first one is built.