[nero]

I have read a couple of news articles recently about non leathal crowd control techniques being fast tracked by the American Military. They got me thinking about the freedoms we take for granted and the increasing ability for the state to control the people. Taking it a step further in light of the stresses on society due to peak oil perhaps we no longer have the luxury to allow these freedoms such as the freedom of expression, the right not to self incriminate, the right to privacy. Perhaps a capitalist/free economy isn't the best model to solve peak oil. Perhaps we need some communistic 5 year plans to enforce the sacrifice required to avoid a dieoff.

So tell me what you think. Which of the rights listed in the bill of rights will seem hopelessly archaic in 50 years?

freedom of religion?
freedom of assembly?
freedom of the press?
freedom of speech?
right to bear arms?
right to privacy in the home?
requirement of probable cause for search and seizure?
right to a jury of his peers?
right to compensation for property taken for the use of the government?
right not to bear witness against himself?
right to counsel?
right of a speedy and public trial?

[Viper]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps a capitalist/free economy isn't the best model to solve peak oil. Perhaps we need some communistic 5 year plans to enforce the sacrifice required to avoid a dieoff.

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen Revolution is the Only Answer
"A single good government becomes... a blessing to the whole earth, its welcome to the oppressed restraining within certain limits the measure of their oppressions. But should even this be counteracted by violence on the right of expatriation, the other branch of our example then presents itself for imitation: to rise on their rulers and do as we have done." --Thomas Jefferson to George Flower, 1817. ME 15:141

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded." --Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:429

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. (*) ME 1:193, Papers 1:125

"When patience has begotten false estimates of its motives, when wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality." --Thomas Jefferson to M. deStael, 1807. ME 11:282

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." --Thomas Jefferson: his motto.

"If ever there was a holy war, it was that which saved our liberties and gave us independence." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:430

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

As revolutionary instruments (when nothing but revolution will cure the evils of the State) [secret societies] are necessary and indispensable, and the right to use them is inalienable by the people." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1803. FE 8:256

"If the appeal to arms is made, it will depend entirely on the disposition of the army whether it issue in liberty or despotism." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Rutledge, 1788.

"War... is not the most favorable moment for divesting the monarchy of power. On the contrary, it is the moment when the energy of a single hand shows itself in the most seducing form." --Thomas Jefferson to Hector St. John de Crevecoeur, 1788. ME 7:115

[Bandaid]

Life is the highest value to me, and a close second is freedom. My reverence for freedom is based on its demonstrated value in furtherance of life.

Your suggestion that slavery should be instituted to help prevent a dieoff is both morally offensive and is just absurd. And yes you are suggesting slavery, the opposite of freedom, when you suggest that we do away with freedom.

The people of Cuba or the former Soviet Union are not somehow inferior people, yet they have achieved nothing much more than poverty under the imprisonment of their government planned economies. The history of the world has demonstrated that slavery brings economic stagnation, lack of innovation and considerable human suffering for the majority. The few brief periods where freedom has surfaced have been characterized by economic advance, innovation and an improvement of the human condition.

Do you think that these human vermin we call government can magically alter the fact that the world is grossly overpopulated and living on time borrowed from the stored remains of ancient sunlight? All that government can do is insure that those in power and their friends have a better chance of surviving the carnage and that the average man bears the brunt of the dieoff. You collectivist Canadians can lead yourselves down the path of such a demise, which I am sure you will, but I prefer the advantage of freedom to further my own survival.

[Matrim]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou collectivist Canadians can lead yourselves down the path of such a demise, which I am sure you will, but I prefer the advantage of freedom to further my own survival.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you think that these human vermin we call government can magically alter the fact that the world is grossly overpopulated and living on time borrowed from the stored remains of ancient sunlight? All that government can do is insure that those in power and their friends have a better chance of surviving the carnage and that the average man bears the brunt of the dieoff. You collectivist Canadians can lead yourselves down the path of such a demise, which I am sure you will, but I prefer the advantage of freedom to further my own survival.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'P')erhaps a capitalist/free economy isn't the best model to solve peak oil. Perhaps we need some communistic 5 year plans to enforce the sacrifice required to avoid a dieoff.

[Permanently_Baffled]

Nero raises a good point , if the government doesn't intervene then the market will take away those freedoms anyway. A good example would be rationing. If the free market has its way gas will get too expensive for most people to afford, but if the product is rationed then everybody would at least get some at an affordable price. So in which of these scenarios do you have the most freedom?, the scenario where you get nothing , or the one where you get a ration. Imagine the same scenario but with food, can you realistically not intervene and let thousands starve while others consume there normal amounts just because of there wealth?

I don't see how PO will not mean more and more government intervention unfortunately....

Scary....

PB

[khebab]

Well, I guess it was expected.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')overnments are increasingly rolling back the rule of law, taking their cue from the U.S.-led war on terror, it said. "The USA as the unrivalled political, military and economic hyper-power sets the tone for governmental behavior worldwide," Secretary General Irene Khan said in the foreword to Amnesty International's 2005 annual report. "When the most powerful country in the world thumbs its nose at the rule of law and human rights, it grants a licence to others to commit abuse with impunity," she said.

[heyhoser]

It's not torture when we do it.

[FoxV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The U.S. government has gone to great lengths to restrict the application of the Geneva Convention and to 're-define' torture," she said, citing the secret detention of suspects and the practice of handing some over to countries where torture was not outlawed.

[EddieB]

As an American it is depressing to see how little my governement cares about citizens of other nations (let alone my fellow Americans). A perfect example of this occured during the anthrax scare back in 2001. Right before the anthrax spores hit the postal system and the Hart office building the US governement was standing firm on the side of drug companies claiming that "patents cannot be violated" in sub-Saharan nations that wanted to give AIDS victims retroviral inhibitors. Days after the anthrax scare began Tommy Thompson was on TV saying he'd break Bayer's patent on cipro unless they granted a reduced rate immediately... Yeah right, three american lives are worth more than how many million South Africans, Botswanians, Ugandans, Kenyans, etc.

[MicroHydro]

Hey, don't be glum, the USA is NUMBER ONE!

The USA has the highest number of people in prison per capita, (take that Cuba, Libya, Iran, Russia, South Africa). We also have the highest TOTAL number of people in prison. Yep, there are more Americans behind bars than Chinese or Indians. Gotta be proud. USA, USA, USA!

[DomusAlbion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'Y')ep, there are more Americans behind bars than Chinese

[AdzP]

In France the prison population is 91 per 100,000
In UK its 120 per 100k.
In USA is 720 per 100k
and if you are a black male in their late twenties (25-30) in the USA its...12600 per 100k.

[k_semler]

The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Kaye
from GA. This guy should run for President one day...

"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help
everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots,
keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby TRY ONE MORE TIME to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other
bed-wetters.

We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are
confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of
NON-Rights as such:

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any
other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them,
but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool
manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be
nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in
public health care.

ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised
if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII: You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you
to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect
you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational
training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X: This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from, English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!

ARTICLE XI: You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!

[UIUCstudent01]

I agree with all of it except I have reservations for:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')RTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool
manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UIUCstudent01', 'I') agree with all of it except I have reservations for:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')RTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool
manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

[Colorado-Valley]

I wonder if this guy gets free government health care.

[UIUCstudent01]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')wo words: McDonald's Coffee