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THE General Motors Volt Thread Pt 2 (merged)

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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 12 Apr 2012, 13:29:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')hey were all just pretending to fix a problem that didn't exist? :roll:


It isn't unrealistic to fix a problem that has no reasonable possibility of occurring in regular usage. If that problem can be produced in the lab, even if it involves violating the instructions for handling the hazardous material. Even more so, if it gets in the news and is used as a political tool.

If it surprised everyone that taking a pick axe to the gasoline tank of an F150 and then dropping a lit cigarette in the puddle made it catch fire; and then that was used as a political weapon to discredit the company and its backers, they'd do a recall and find a way to keep a pick axe from penetrating the gasoline tank. As it is, people are used to the idea that you have to handle gasoline properly and you can't poke holes in gasoline tanks without running the risk of dieing. OTOH, most people's primary contact with battery tech is AA cells and laptop batteries; neither of which quite make the "lethal" caution level even when misused.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 12 Apr 2012, 14:48:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')hey were all just pretending to fix a problem that didn't exist? :roll:


It isn't unrealistic to fix a problem that has no reasonable possibility of occurring in regular usage. If that problem can be produced in the lab, even if it involves violating the instructions for handling the hazardous material. Even more so, if it gets in the news and is used as a political tool.

If it surprised everyone that taking a pick axe to the gasoline tank of an F150 and then dropping a lit cigarette in the puddle made it catch fire; and then that was used as a political weapon to discredit the company and its backers, they'd do a recall and find a way to keep a pick axe from penetrating the gasoline tank. As it is, people are used to the idea that you have to handle gasoline properly and you can't poke holes in gasoline tanks without running the risk of dieing. OTOH, most people's primary contact with battery tech is AA cells and laptop batteries; neither of which quite make the "lethal" caution level even when misused.

Do you recall the ford" Pinto" with the drop in rear fill gas tank? The top of the tank served as the floor of the trunk with just a piece of carpet over it and the filler pipe rose up from the tank and out the center rear to get it above the number plate. In a rear end crash the filler pipe would rip out of the tank as it got pushed forward splashing gas over the back of the rear seat mounting that was not a solid sheet of steel. Imagine your child in a baby seat belted in behind you!!!
Even good companies can have very bad ideas. The Volt is just the latest.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 12 Apr 2012, 19:27:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')Do you recall the ford" Pinto" with the drop in rear fill gas tank? The top of the tank served as the floor of the trunk with just a piece of carpet over it and the filler pipe rose up from the tank and out the center rear to get it above the number plate. In a rear end crash the filler pipe would rip out of the tank as it got pushed forward splashing gas over the back of the rear seat mounting that was not a solid sheet of steel.

To me, what is interesting here is that given how FLAGRANTLY STUPID AND OBVIOUS this problem was, that all the government's wonderful safety apparatus, including the NHTSA (which is supposedly good, as such agencies go) did NOTHING, found NOTHING, and let this go on for so long and kill so many people.

This example is the POSTER CHILD for why the constant cries of "More government!" and "More Government Regulation.!" as the solution to all of society's ills are such a bad idea.

But then again, with examples like the DMV, the Post Office, and (efficiency wise) the military as constant reminders -- why let little things like blatanly obvious truth obstruct one's thinking? :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 13 Apr 2012, 14:09:13

So exactly how would less government oversight have made the Ford Pinto situation better? No one is suggesting that governmental oversight is going to be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than letting businesses just do as they please with little to no consequences.
AgentR11 summed it up pretty well, it's better to "fix" a problem that doesn't really exist outside the lab than try to fight the FUD. There are always means to improve a product and make it safer, but there is also no way to make anything perfectly safe, especially not the ICE's we drive around in every day with a flammable liquid inside a thin sheet metal tank. I'm much more nervous when filling my gas tank than plugging in my EV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcQd1qoDAs
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Apr 2012, 21:23:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'S')o exactly how would less government oversight have made the Ford Pinto situation better? No one is suggesting that governmental oversight is going to be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than letting businesses just do as they please with little to no consequences.

Typical liberal thinking. I provide a perfect example of governmental regulation and safety oversight being a COMPLETE FAILURE, and you come back with a completely unsupported statement like what I highlighted above in red.

Given how much is spent on "oversight" and "regulation", and how much corruption and incompetence by government allows recent things like (off the top):

- Enron
- Sarbanes-Oxley -- perhaps the greatest productivity sink for no measurable effect in decades. (Remember -- it was going to help "prevent financial fraud". It actually helped accelerate the shipment of corporate jobs overseas. Well done libs.
- The banking/housing crisis (Yeah, there is no regulation on banks. :razz: )
- Bernie Madoff (despite numerous warnings to the SEC)
- The BP gulf oil spill, despite BP having hundreds of serious infractions reported. Massive corruption and partying by the EPA instead of properly monitoring BP, leading up to the crisis.
- Numerous unresolved food scares like Tomatos, Peanuts, Eggs, etc. with it clear from the follow-up investigations aired on CSPAN that the leaders of the FDA couldn't find their backsides with both hands. ALL they do really is require massive input and "self-reporting/regulation" which they put into spreadsheets (with a budget of many billions of dollars).
- The FAA in general. (They only recommend and complain. Whenever their lax procedures lead to an accident they explain they can't make the airlines do ANYTHING).
-- The 2010 Census. Still using 50 year old (hardcopy form) technology for crissakes. Completely screwed up on the minimal software changes they were making. Many $billions over budget. Completely clueless and useless on CSPAN when grilled by congress as to what the hell they were DOING over there with that huge budget and so little to show for it.
- (The list is endless -- but this suits to provide some quick examples).

So, given the reputational damage businesses face when screwing up -- and except for whining, seeing how helpless and hapless the government is at actually providing any MEANINGFUL benefit -- I am not convinced most regulation is worth it.

My statement is that it CERTAINLY isn't worth it to (as MSNBC is so fond of doing on behalf of their liberal constituents) AUTOMATICALLY call for more and "better" regulations whenever there is a problem.

....

So congratulations -- if all you can do is make an empty left-wing position statement with absolutely NO supporting data -- you help make my point.

....

I'd be all for EFFECTIVE (low cost and actually making businesses behave) -- we just don't see enough of that. And it constantly gets worse. And policies like the Barack Obama "throw money we don't have at everything and scream at rich people" mantra only accelerate that trend.

EPIC FAIL. Again -- congratulations.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 13 Apr 2012, 21:37:31

Pretty much everything you mentioned is directly related to a REDUCTION in governmental regulation and control, yet of course you fail to see that. Unregulated business will do whatever they can get away with, including dumping their toxic wastes into our food and water supplies, as long as it maximizes profits.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Apr 2012, 21:44:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'S')o exactly how would less government oversight have made the Ford Pinto situation better?

....

There are always means to improve a product and make it safer, but there is also no way to make anything perfectly safe, especially not the ICE's we drive around in every day with a flammable liquid inside a thin sheet metal tank. I'm much more nervous when filling my gas tank than plugging in my EV.

Do you think before you post, or just throw words out there?

I never said less regulation would make the Ford Pinto better. I pointed out that the Ford Pinto was a complete and obvious fiasco, and all the government auto-related apparatus failed to do anything meaningful about it -- for a LONG time.

Also, since you seem to have missed it -- ordinarily, cars don't burst into flame, even when they are involved in REALLY BAD wrecks. You see, there are things like design, engineering, safety tests, learning from what has worked before, and caring about corporate reputation which all seem to help companies build well over 99% of car models with a gasoline tank protected well enough that it causes very little safety problems.

But then you state you are afraid to fill up your car with gas -- as though it is an extreme hazard. (Skin contact and breathing the fumes a lot may be a health hazard -- I do try to avoid that).

Rational thinking. Statistics. History. Data (there is this thing called Google on the internet). These might lead to better thought processes than randomly assuming big government "will take care of you".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 11 Sep 2012, 19:20:11

Pentagon is buying VOLTS from general motors

Pentagon buying Chevy Volts

The Chevy Volts are very lightweight, but they still can only go about 35 miles on a charge-----once the Pentagon puts body armor on them, they'll probably only be able to run for a few minutes and go a couple of a miles.

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Hope that Chevy Volt had body armor....
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby seenmostofit » Tue 11 Sep 2012, 20:57:45

I haven't put body armor on mine. Got 43 miles out of one charge though. Winter #1 coming up, we'll see how much cold affects range.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 11 Sep 2012, 21:11:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seenmostofit', 'I') haven't put body armor on mine. Got 43 miles out of one charge though. Winter #1 coming up, we'll see how much cold affects range.


Consumer reports already tested the VOLT in the cold---mileage dropped a lot. You might still be OK if you bundle up for your drive and don't use the heater----apparently the heater sucked a lot of power from the battery and cut into the mileage.

The poor performance in the cold is one reason I won't get a VOLT for use here in Alaska. But I still think the technology is great. :)
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby seenmostofit » Tue 11 Sep 2012, 23:51:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seenmostofit', 'I') haven't put body armor on mine. Got 43 miles out of one charge though. Winter #1 coming up, we'll see how much cold affects range.


Consumer reports already tested the VOLT in the cold---mileage dropped a lot. You might still be OK if you bundle up for your drive and don't use the heater----apparently the heater sucked a lot of power from the battery and cut into the mileage.

The poor performance in the cold is one reason I won't get a VOLT for use here in Alaska. But I still think the technology is great. :)


I have a garage to park it in, unheated but rarely <32F. Still, I expect a drop in performance. If experience with hybrids is any indication, it will certainly be noticeable.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 12 Sep 2012, 01:00:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seenmostofit', 'I') haven't put body armor on mine.

Did you go for the camouflage option?
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Blacksmith » Wed 12 Sep 2012, 07:36:54

Great buy! Where else can you get a car that costs $75,000 to make for a list price of $45,000. Get yourself a part of that bailout from Government Motors.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby seenmostofit » Wed 12 Sep 2012, 08:41:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'G')reat buy! Where else can you get a car that costs $75,000 to make for a list price of $45,000. Get yourself a part of that bailout from Government Motors.


That might be the list price, but you can get it even cheaper with help from your friendly federal and state governments!
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 10 Jan 2014, 14:16:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')eck and neck, the rivalry continues in 2014

2013 is over and the numbers are in, so we now know how many Volt plug-in hybrids and how many LEAF (LEAVES?) electric cars were sold. The LEAF made a valiant effort to grab the #1 spot, more than doubling its sales from 2012 (9,819) and reaching a final number of 22,610 for 2013.
Unfortunately for Nissan, that wasn't enough to catch the Chevrolet Volt. While the Volt didn't see the LEAF's growth in 2013, it still sold more with a final tally of 23,094 for the year.

In December, the LEAF had its best month ever with 2,529 units sold versus the 2,392 units of the Volt. This could be a sign that 2014 will be the year of the LEAF, at least in this particular rivalry. Tesla is aiming to sell about 40,000 electric cars during the year, so both GM and Nissan will have to significantly increase production and sales to keep up.
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Re: THE General Motors Volt Thread Pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Jan 2014, 02:50:31

I can still remember the optimism and joy I felt when the Chevy Volt was first announced. I have an old Civic I drive and had just paid it off, when I heard about the Volt I planned on continuing to make the same 'car payments' into a special savings account so that when it came time to buy a new car I would have a great down payment to put on it when my civic died. Well between the fact that I got divorced and my civic is still running that never happened and given the way the Volt turned out compared to the way I expected it to turn out I suppose it is just as well i didn't buy one and waste all that money on car payments that I have avoided with my now 14 year old Honda.
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