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THE Tea Party Thread pt 3 (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 11:55:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'A')ctually, I don't think the Republicans are any more serious about balancing the budget or holding the line on debts than are the Democrats. They control the House, so all they need to do is just refuse to increase the debt limit, period. Spending would come to a halt. But you can bet, after all the theater is over, they will vote to increase the debt limit and any spending cuts will be illusory.


Yup. Some of the freshman reps are sort of stupid.. they don't understand the whole debt thing is all for show with Republicans. Repubs aren't against debt, look how much they blew the debt up under Bush and the Repub Congress..

Repubs are for low taxes on the wealther brackets, that's it. If more debt means they can do more tax cuts then they're all for it.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Pops » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 12:19:39

Do you remember when McCain was talking to that sweet little old lady in AZ and she said Barry couldn't be trusted 'cuz he's an A-Rab?

I knew right they the 'pubs had pushed the Angry White "Easy Button" one too many times and so did John.

It's a Gingrich Term for the TEAs.

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The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 12:37:44

I thought she was from SW PA.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 13:05:10

What you are watching is the some of the final spasms of liberalism. From Greece, to Spain, to the US, the money has run out, they've spent and spent and spent, till there is no more and no one wants to loan them any more. Any yes, Republicans have contributed to the problem. But no one, no one president in American history has ever run up the debt like Obama. And without an increasing source of money, liberalism fades. Peak oil whether a partial or complete cause decreases the ability of government (or industry, etc) to grow.
Obama, the FUBAR presidency gets scraped off the boot
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 14:18:17

No. The wealthy fleeced and plundered and fleeced some more until they had taken it all. And you know what comes after that, every time in history that wealth disparity has gotten this great?

The masses take it all back in a violent fashion.

Property rights only exist as long as the masses are convinced you are entitled to it.

This isn't a liberal/conservative thing. Look back over history.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby ian807 » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 14:35:05

Outrageous racism! This is an insult to hobbits everywhere! Mr. McCain will soon be getting a letter from the lawyers representing Middle-Earth Organization of Hobbits, Orcs and Elves in Solidarity.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Lore » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 14:36:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'W')hat you are watching is the some of the final spasms of liberalism. From Greece, to Spain, to the US, the money has run out, they've spent and spent and spent, till there is no more and no one wants to loan them any more. Any yes, Republicans have contributed to the problem. But no one, no one president in American history has ever run up the debt like Obama. And without an increasing source of money, liberalism fades. Peak oil whether a partial or complete cause decreases the ability of government (or industry, etc) to grow.


Obama has yet to match the debt incurred by the former administration. Bush, not only squandered a 6 trillion dollar surplus coming in, but accumulated a further 5.5 trillion dollar deficit. At this point The Obama administration has racked up an additional 1.3 trillion.
Last edited by Lore on Thu 28 Jul 2011, 15:04:15, edited 1 time in total.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 14:46:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'N')o. The wealthy fleeced and plundered and fleeced some more until they had taken it all. And you know what comes after that, every time in history that wealth disparity has gotten this great?

The masses take it all back in a violent fashion.

They will end up disappointed.
There is not much wealth left.
Obsolete, oil dependent infrastructure which is going to turn into ruins, collapsing city infrastructure, bankrupt companies and banks existing only due to taxpayer support, entirely useless private jets and yachts, mac mansions which are too expensive to run etc.

Some nicer picks (say gold) are already mostly withheld from US and rest will follow or get hidden and of course modern weaponry (still operational) is also controlled by those influential ones.

So no, there won't be much to take back.
America is already bankrupt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')roperty rights only exist as long as the masses are convinced you are entitled to it.

This isn't a liberal/conservative thing. Look back over history.

US Army controlled by wealthy TPTB will make sure that property rights are observed for as long as deemed necessary.
Later on sinking ship will be abandoned and plundered derelict land left for impoverished mob or alternatively you may face massive population reduction by military means, just to keep discontent in check.
The same what was done in Fallujah will be done in San Francisco or NY, if deemed necessary.

Welcome to Third World America.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Pops » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 15:05:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'W')hat you are watching is the some of the final spasms of liberalism. From Greece, to Spain, to the US, the money has run out,

Yeah, the dems want "programs" but liberalism goes way beyond money and will be around whether there is money or not because it is basically about liberty, the social contract and natural/civil rights.

Conservatives on the other hand are about money and reaping the fruits of the common they imagine as their own achievement, they always have been. The social stuff they picked up recently from the old southern Dems but at heart they are still about money.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 15:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'W')hat you are watching is the some of the final spasms of liberalism. From Greece, to Spain, to the US, the money has run out,

Yeah, the dems want "programs" but liberalism goes way beyond money and will be around whether there is money or not because it is basically about liberty, the social contract and natural/civil rights.

History teaches us the opposite.
Stable form of impoverished society is feudalism, not liberalism.

Feudalism is broken once some substantial new technologies and new frontiers are being opened - then we have libertarianism.

Once opportunity to grow economy is decreasing, we are getting liberalism with entitlement culture stc.

Once money run out we are getting collapse and Mad Max (anarchy), sometimes there is an initial period of fascism or other authoritarian system before final collapse and disintegration.

After not very long period of that we are back to feudal systems emerging from initial failed states.

So it is unlikely that liberalism would last any worthwhile length of time in shrinking economy.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Lore » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 15:59:45

I don't believe there exists any basis for the assumption, either because of population size or economic condition, that one form of government will take the place of another. Besides feudalism is a system of governing, while liberalism is a belief.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Pops » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 16:38:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'H')istory teaches us the opposite.

I'd be interested to read that history, have you a link?

Feudalism is really more economic than social isn't it? Not much feudalism around after the advent of mercantilism and capitalism, in what, the 1500s? I'm pretty sure we aren't going back to feudalism any time soon.

Anarchy, whether it's Right or Left Libertarian are as dependent on luck and the state as everyone else, I think they know it and it scares 'em but they won't admit it. There have never been any libertarian states I don't think, they are the product of liberalism's defeat of aristocracy and enabled by today's wealth.

The US has always been authoritarian though, you are right about that. Strange mixture with our liberal beginnings but I guess the colonists wanted out from under the government/church thumb so they could be the one wielding the thumb. :)


Anyway, I'm thinking about liberalism sans welfare, not the Roman slave holding militaristic plutocratic version (although that sounds like something conservatives would go for :-D ) or the FDR, JFK welfare-state type, more the kind of Locke and the revolutionaries of the 17th and 18th century with their focus on civil and religious liberty, property rights...

from Wiki:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hrough all these strands and traditions, scholars have identified the following major common facets of liberal thought: believing in equality and individual liberty, supporting private property and individual rights, supporting the idea of limited constitutional government, and recognizing the importance of related values such as pluralism, toleration, autonomy, and consent.
...
The early waves of liberalism popularized economic individualism while expanding constitutional government and parliamentary authority.[123] One of the greatest liberal triumphs involved replacing the capricious nature of royalist and absolutist rule with a decision-making process encoded in written law.[123] Liberals sought and established a constitutional order that prized important individual freedoms, such as the freedom of speech and of association, an independent judiciary and public trial by jury, and the abolition of aristocratic privileges.[123]

These sweeping changes in political authority marked the modern transition from absolutism to constitutional rule.[123] The expansion and promotion of free markets was another major liberal achievement. Before they could establish markets, however, liberals had to destroy the old economic structures of the world. In that vein, liberals ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies, and various other restraints on economic activities.[123] They also sought to abolish internal barriers to trade—eliminating guilds, local tariffs, and prohibitions on the sale of land along the way.[123]
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 16:45:49

I think we may be looking at a autonomous anarcho-syndicalist commune in the not too distance future. It might not be so bad.

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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 20:55:44

Boehner's delayed the vote on his plan.. looks like he doesn't have the votes. Thing is, this was supposed to be the "for show" vote to give everyone cover with the Tea Party, then they were supposed to get serious about compromise. But if Boehner can't even get the "for show" bill passed... then how is he going to get a compromise passed?

I actually feel sorry for Boehner.. Tea Party callin' him a welfare queen..

If someone like Boehner is a liberal I guess I'm a communist. 8O
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby peeker01 » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 21:06:21

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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Bill Hicks » Thu 28 Jul 2011, 21:11:21

I don't feel sorry for BONER...or Obama either for that matter. They both got elected to screw the rest of us, and it looks like they are having a fine old time doing it. :badgrin:

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Check out The Downward Spiral (A Requiem for the American Dream):

http://billhicksisdead.blogspot.com/
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Fri 29 Jul 2011, 16:15:13

McCain is officially senile. Time to put him out to pasture....
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 29 Jul 2011, 16:58:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'H')istory teaches us the opposite.

I'd be interested to read that history, have you a link?

Feudalism is really more economic than social isn't it? Not much feudalism around after the advent of mercantilism and capitalism, in what, the 1500s? I'm pretty sure we aren't going back to feudalism any time soon.

Remarks about transition to feudal system was stated base on story of Roman collapse.

Liberal welfare state of the time (there was plenty of welfare programs for Roman citizens) have fallen into warlordism (Dark Ages) and ended up with feudal structures.
Incidentally one of main reasons of this sad story was a lack of budgetary restrain, aversion to balancing your books and frivolous monetary policy - very much like we observe now in America.
And don't you tell me that Romans had slavery based system and Liberal America is all about freedom.
The only difference is that USA have somehow outsourced her slaves abroad, so average American citizen just cannot see them on the street.
Obviously that doesn't mean that slaves are not there...
They surely are and working very hard to enable some silly Liberals to claim how Liberal and progressive America is.

As per capitalism & mercantilism not falling back into feudal society, obviously you are right up to date, however our loss of ability to produce ever growing amounts of energy and other goods (related to physical lack of resources required for it) will dictate some sort of correction of those surely unsustainable systems.
Huge correction indeed...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')There have never been any libertarian states I don't think, they are the product of liberalism's defeat of aristocracy and enabled by today's wealth.

Jefferson's US?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nyway, I'm thinking about liberalism sans welfare, not the Roman slave holding militaristic plutocratic version (although that sounds like something conservatives would go for :-D ) or the FDR, JFK welfare-state type, more the kind of Locke and the revolutionaries of the 17th and 18th century with their focus on civil and religious liberty, property rights...

Hence here is source of our disagreement.
I am associating liberalism mainly with welfare state, entitlement culture and also large degree of sexual freedom, so I guess Roman citizens also enjoyed it to large degree in the past.
Somehow I percept liberalism as a sort of decadent system where peoples feel self-entitled to get whatever they fancy without any need to make necessary personal input critical for securing it.
It is just enough to demand it from government and hey presto, it will come.
This kind of environment is obviously a fertile ground for crafty plutocrats to hijack society for their own ends.
It is enough to promise a lot to the mob, deliver little or next to nothing and you are free to rule and rip benefits.
Meantime you must only show, how good Liberal you are.
Expanding new and new human rights, regardless how unaffordable or plain stupid they might be, serve well this purpose.

Peoples like Al Gore or Kennedy clique are a sort of perfect Liberals of the current time.
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby highlander » Fri 29 Jul 2011, 18:13:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'O')bama has yet to match the debt incurred by the former administration. Bush, not only squandered a 6 trillion dollar surplus coming in, but accumulated a further 5.5 trillion dollar deficit. At this point The Obama administration has racked up an additional 1.3 trillion.


You really need to learn the difference between debt and deficit
5.5 trillion additional debt over 8 years is a deficit of about 690 billion/year
current deficits are around 1700 billion/year
neither parties "plans" make a dent in this deficit spending. 1000 billion over ten years is 100 billlion a year. that cuts current deficits to a mere 1600 billion a year.
Hence, US credit rating will be downgraded.
US taxpayers pay more
Fed banks get richer
This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
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Re: John McCain calls Tea Partiers "foolish, bizarre, hobbit

Unread postby Novus » Fri 29 Jul 2011, 19:13:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')They will end up disappointed.
There is not much wealth left.
Obsolete, oil dependent infrastructure which is going to turn into ruins, collapsing city infrastructure, bankrupt companies and banks existing only due to taxpayer support, entirely useless private jets and yachts, mac mansions which are too expensive to run etc.

Some nicer picks (say gold) are already mostly withheld from US and rest will follow or get hidden and of course modern weaponry (still operational) is also controlled by those influential ones.

So no, there won't be much to take back.
America is already bankrupt.


I think you have a distorted vision of what Wealth is. Wealth isn't stored in empty building or banks. Wealth is created by working people making useful things by hand if necessary. The problem is the rich are taking the wealth created by the people and keeping it for themselves while putting those who actually do the wealth creating in debt.

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