[Livewire713]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Livewire713', 'C')og thinks he'll be able to walk the streets with a pocket full of dough while people are starving around him.

[SeaGypsy]

To give another perspective. I spend about half the time working in Australia, the other half at home in the Philippines with my family and fledgling business.

Australia has one of the best welfare systems in the world.
Due to our mining based fiscal position, nothing drastic is happening to demand overhaul of the system.
There is an element of abuse of the system, but it is relatively small, most people who get welfare need it. As long as a person complies with the demands of the system/ proof of job applications/ enrolment in courses/ etc. the payments continue.

We also have universal medical coverage.
Before anyone starts screaming about tax, I will say that on an income of $30k earned over 6 months I pay no tax effectively.
As long as myself and my children are in Australia for half the time, I retain full tax concessions.

In the Philippines there is effectively no state welfare system beyond the most basic medical service. To get a pension you have to have paid in 10 years running, any collects come out and the maximum collect is about $60 a month. Most people work for between $3 and $10 a day. Almost everyone lives with extended family in a socialised economic system within the home. Income is not just handed out as cash, it is carefully converted into survival for the family.

Two very different systems. My point is this question I keep pondering; which system is more sustainable in the long run?

I can see the initial breakdown of social security systems taking decades. There will be a lot of trauma as this happens, much of it because of the nuclear mentality fostered so nicely in us by our upbringings.

The US system is obviously coming under strain. It will likely only get worse. The issue which comes next is resilience. America is bred on resilience. It may be a little hard to see it through the blubber and hype, but the genes are there. The pain of loss in is a nanny state is in direct proportion to the dependence nurtured during her time with the child.

Really we are all sucking at the teat of the oil driven monster that is the industrial age at it's zenith. No-one here gets out alive. Moral relativism aside.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o what do you do with the unemployed who can't find work. Kill them?

[NickyBoy]

You understand its cheeper and less intrusive to support these people then it is to have the security force needed to deal with a zombie horde of starving humans with nothing to loose?

Welfare is a bribe (cheep at twice the price) to prevent the unemployed having to commit crime just to stay alive. All this talk about it being the 'morally correct thing to do' is just frosting to make people feel good.

Take welfare away and those who 'have' will be killed in short order by those who don't.

I personally am fine with a few moochers getting free food out of my taxes if it means I wont be killed tomorrow by a desperate man trying to get food for his starving children.

[Cloud9]

The plan is to erode the benefits through inflation and changing the CPI. The Snap cards will still spend but they will buy less and less. The sirloin and lobster days are coming to an end. Grandma is not going to lose her social security, it just going to buy less and less. Beans and rice will be the order of the day.

During the prior great depression my grandpa lost a section of land because he could not sell enough cows off of it to pay the taxes. The state has the power to impoverish us all.

Therein lies the fear of the state.

[prajeshbhat]

It may be worthwhile to discuss what to do what happens when the government is no longer capable to supporting people on welfare. If all those doom and gloom predictions are correct, dollar is one screw-up away from hyperinflation. Almost all countries need trade with US just to maintain the feel of a functioning economy (globalization). Of course an all out currency war is not out of question. So basically all countries have the same problem(fiat currency). Even the developing ones. If the government collapses, mafia rule is inevitable. Isn't it better to just pay taxes to a democratically elected government.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'D')o you lack love?

[Cloud9]

I am not an anarchist. I subscribe to the social contract theory. The local mafia is protected by the state. If it were not so then rough justice in the form of vigilance committees would take them out.

I have watched the tax deeds advertised in the legals in the local paper. One law firm out of Orlando usually runs four to six pages of notices every Wednesday. A hand full of guys are buying up the county for pennies on the dollar. The local government in an effort to fund its day to day expenses is enabling this transfer of wealth. The local street thug is small change compared to these guys backed up by the full letter of the law.

[Expatriot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')ime for some austerity. We can't afford to extend the government teat to the mooch class anymore. It's pretty obvious, and gladly so, most people don't see it the way you do.

[vision-master]

The Youngbloods - Get Together

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', ' ')A hand full of guys are buying up the county for pennies on the dollar. The local government in an effort to fund its day to day expenses is enabling this transfer of wealth. The local street thug is small change compared to these guys backed up by the full letter of the law.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')et's not forget slackers who take the homeowners interest deduction or whose income tax is deferred on an IRA, or write off use of a personal car or home office, and lets not forget those freeloaders who receive compensation in the form of employer provided health insurance but pay no tax on it's value and ...

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')You’re welcome to your libertarian opinion, that is your right, and one which I would defend. It’s only when such contrarian ideology steps over the line of dangerous political enforcement against the benefit of good citizens that bothers me.

[Cog]

I think I understand the board membership a lot better now. OF2 is not the only cornucopian running around, this board is filled with them. They might call themselves progressives but I smell corn.

[davep]

I may be displaying deep ignorance of US politics, but didn't government payroll increase massively under George Bush jr's presidency with all the homeland security spook stuff etc?

And wasn't it on his watch that the whole subprime bank implosion (and hence reduced levels of taxation due to an imploding economy) occurred?

So why are Republicans now screaming about debt under the Democrats? Surely there's a massive element of legacy here given that the majority of that debt was handed down? Heliopter Ben is a symptom, not the cause, of the current malaise.

Maybe I just don't get how things work over there.

[Quinny]

Not a corny at all but just recognise that capitalism needs growth and IMO the loss of cheap oil will stop this happening. Whether it's a long emergency or a fast crash, IMO socialism will be a better means of managing the devastation that PO will cause.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I') may be displaying deep ignorance of US politics, but didn't government payroll increase massively under George Bush jr's presidency with all the homeland security spook stuff etc?

[davep]

That's a fair response Agentr.

But as for $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he over-pacified European theatre

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I') may be displaying deep ignorance of US politics, but didn't government payroll increase massively under George Bush jr's presidency with all the homeland security spook stuff etc?

And wasn't it on his watch that the whole subprime bank implosion (and hence reduced levels of taxation due to an imploding economy) occurred?