Why local self-sufficient communities will fail

by **uNkNowN ElEmEnt** » Sat 21 May 2005, 17:45:59

If I were to use a movie to exemplify how I believe the future would in a total meltdown, it would be the communities in "the Postman with Kenvin Costner". (not the roving army part, although that is always a possibility)

I did not get the passivist/pacifist thing until you pointed it out. Having spent a decade in super maximum male jails I can tell you definitively that violence is never a good solution. I will never resort to it unless there is no other option. and having been a prison guard for many years I have luckily learned a lot of skills like negotiating.

However, there are a great many more people out there that are stuck in the madmax ideology who have little or no skills. and those are likely the ones you would have to deal with. (good thing you are leaving the US) because I see little else emerging from your cities. it will be the worst of dog eat dog.

If you haven't seen the postman I highly recommend it. while they get there by different means than we would the effects are similar, and its a good movie.

by **Bytesmiths** » Sat 21 May 2005, 18:10:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'I')f I were to use a movie to exemplify how I believe the future would in a total meltdown, it would be the communities in "the Postman with Kenvin Costner".

by **heyhoser** » Sat 21 May 2005, 19:17:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'A') pacifist defense may be less effective in this situation than in the "slow meltdown", but I believe it is still more viable than sitting on an arms cache -- the well-armed person will be an inviting target in such a case!

by **Bytesmiths** » Sat 21 May 2005, 21:47:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', 'S')o, let's say I'm a bad guy and I want to pillage a small community of about 50 people, get some food, 'stuff', and maybe do some raping on those yummy 13 year old blondes. And I've got two choices.

by **jato** » Sun 22 May 2005, 19:04:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't expect to change anyone's mind; you've seen too much TV for me to do that! The TV trains us for the world of violence that our "leaders" want us to believe is necessary. If you've swallowed that line, of course, you must have your guns.

by **Bytesmiths** » Sun 22 May 2005, 19:16:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't expect to change anyone's mind; you've seen too much TV for me to do that! The TV trains us for the world of violence that our "leaders" want us to believe is necessary. If you've swallowed that line, of course, you must have your guns.

by **heyhoser** » Sun 22 May 2005, 19:57:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'I')f all that is true, I'd say you're pretty stupid, and should be pretty easy to outwit! :-)

by **Bytesmiths** » Sun 22 May 2005, 20:16:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'I')f all that is true, I'd say you're pretty stupid, and should be pretty easy to outwit! :-)

by **heyhoser** » Sun 22 May 2005, 20:24:57

Cool, cool. Have a good week, then. :roll:

by **Chocky** » Mon 23 May 2005, 07:07:06

Thanks for the expanding on your thoughts on pacificism Bytesmiths, I found them very interesting. I think your ideas on community and isolation are great, but I can't help thinking there is no 'backup plan'. Guns don't have to be brandished or carried openly- there's no need for anyone to know that you have them. In the absolute worst-case scenario, being armed can only be to your advantage.

One thing, don't plan on the assumption that there will be a lack of ammunition in the future. Ammunition has a shelf life of 50-100 years, and is extremely cheap and widely available in the US. Have no doubt that ammunition will be relatively plentiful for decades after the last round has been manufactured. I have also read the postman, and recall that there were a lot of bullets around- the postman may have had three shells for his revolver, but the 'damnsurvivalists' seemed to have an unlimited supply. I haven't read it for a while, but as I remember the ordinary people were completely at the mercy of the survivalists, who raided and pillaged as they liked.

by **Bytesmiths** » Mon 23 May 2005, 13:00:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chocky', 'I') think your ideas on community and isolation are great, but I can't help thinking there is no 'backup plan'.

by **heyhoser** » Mon 23 May 2005, 13:13:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', ' ')Like I said, I don't plan to be one of heyhoser's two alternatives, just as I'm sure he doesn't plan to be among the overwhelming statistics that show that people with hand guns tend to use them on each other more often than for defense.

by **Chocky** » Tue 24 May 2005, 00:22:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o my way of thinking, they are a dangerous diversion of resource. They need to be cleaned, maintained, tested, used.

by **heyhoser** » Tue 24 May 2005, 08:58:07

Great point, Chocky.
Anyway, firearms would probably be a good idea for any small community. If the infastructure breaks down, calling 911 when someone breaks into your house simply isn't going to work. (Jane picks up the phone, listens, dials number repeatedly, hangs up in despair in realization that the electricity had been turned off four months before)

Even in the worst doomer scenario, there won't be a massive die-off immediately. It could take years for the system to dissolve, and at any moment, someone desperate enough could decide that he/they deserve to live more than you do. If the cities crumble into disuse, there will be a massive immigration into the country-side as desperate people realize that there is too little food. Of course, this is only a "scenario" continuing the "possibility" of trying to live in a "self-sufficient" community in a "doomer-obsessed" world post PO.

I'd like to see what a cop thinks about the idea of having firearms to protect you and yours in a potentially violent situation. I'm of the opinion that most of the people here who don't think we should have firearms post PO are probably people who've never used one, relying on mace, evasion, and the police. Probably think that if 'guns' were outlawed, there'd be no more guns in the world. :roll:

There's some good discussion here, and if anyone could tell me how they plan to protect themselves and theirs through pacifism, I'd love to hear it. The image of the protestor standing in front of the tank in China keeps coming to mind, right before they ran him over. :wink:

by **Doly** » Tue 24 May 2005, 11:21:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '
')There's some good discussion here, and if anyone could tell me how they plan to protect themselves and theirs through pacifism, I'd love to hear it. The image of the protestor standing in front of the tank in China keeps coming to mind, right before they ran him over. :wink:

by **heyhoser** » Tue 24 May 2005, 13:10:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '
')There's some good discussion here, and if anyone could tell me how they plan to protect themselves and theirs through pacifism, I'd love to hear it. The image of the protestor standing in front of the tank in China keeps coming to mind, right before they ran him over. :wink:

by **Chocky** » Wed 25 May 2005, 05:06:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') also believe that if you get assaulted by somebody who has a gun, the fact that you also have a gun won't protect you from *their* bullets.

Why local self-sufficient communities will fail

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