[Xenophobe]

deleted

[Cloud9]

Sorry Pstar, I thought you were telling me to go buy one of the things.

[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'S')orry Pstar, I thought you were telling me to go buy one of the things.

[Cloud9]

Nope careless reading on my part.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'T')he only thing that will save the world is Peakoil, along with peaksoil, peakphosphorus, etc. Delay of death will only expand the magnitude of everybodies suffering.
Keeping 7 billion humanoids around me is not worth cutting an acre of virgin forest per second and exterminating 10-20 species a day.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'A')s for altruism, there is nothing that people do without benefiting themselves or their genes in one way or another.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')The only thing that will save the world is Peakoil, along with peaksoil, peakphosphorus, etc. Delay of death will only expand the magnitude of everybodies suffering.

[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Fortunately human haters aren't the norm.

[lper100km]

For every force there is an opposite!

Here is an interesting and well presented argument that foresees no future for hydrogen ‘fuel’ cells and hence no future for hydrogen powered vehicles.

From ‘The Globe and Mail’ Dec 26th, 2010: http://tinyurl.com/2bmf9os

My comments:

It is worth remembering that the motivation for developing mobile hydrogen cells was the desire to eliminate tail pipe emissions. It is also worth remembering that the hydrogen acts solely as an energy carrier. The fuel is the feedstock that is presented for conversion into hydrogen. Twenty five years ago when this technology was first explored, it was the growing realization that carbon dioxide emissions were toxic and perhaps were contributing to AGW. The feed stock for fuel cells remains fractionated gaseous hydrocarbons and thus relies on the continuation of the oil and gas industry. There was no thought given to the idea that oil and gas supplies could seriously decline, when the hydrogen cell concept was developed. From an energy efficiency point of view, the hydrogen cell is at the bottom of the heap. It is far more efficient to use the feedstock directly as fuel, instead of going through the hydrogen conversion process. Thus, the only motivation for its existence can be from an environmental perspective. In a declining prime fuel situation, there can be no future for such a device.

By the way, when was the last time you heard the words ‘hydrogen economy’?

To paraphrase the thread header: Hydrogen vehicles will drive nowhere.

[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', '
')By the way, when was the last time you heard the words ‘hydrogen economy’?

To paraphrase the thread header: Hydrogen vehicles will drive nowhere.

[Graeme]

13 Japanese automakers and energy companies join forces to support rollout of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in 2015

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') coalition of 13 major Japanese automakers and energy companies—including Toyota, Honda and Nissan—are joining together to expand the introduction of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) in 2015 and develop the hydrogen supply network throughout Japan. The two groups are looking to the government to join them in forming various strategies to support their joint efforts and to gain greater public acceptance of the technology.

As a specific initiative in the immediate future, the companies plan to approach local governments and other concerned parties to discuss strategies for creating initial consumer demand for FCVs and for the optimal placement of hydrogen fueling stations, targeting Japan's four major metropolitan areas (Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka and Fukuoka).

Companies in the coalition include: Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC); Nissan Motor Company, Ltd.; Honda Motor Company, Ltd.; JX Nippon Oil & Energy Corporation; Idemitsu Kosan Company, Ltd.; Iwatani Corporation; Osaka Gas Company, Ltd.; Cosmo Oil Company, Ltd.; Saibu Gas Company, Ltd.; Showa Shell Sekiyu K.K.; Taiyo Nippon Sanso Corporation; Tokyo Gas Company, Ltd.; and Toho Gas, Company, Ltd.

As development of fuel-cell systems progresses, Japanese automakers are continuing drastically to reduce the cost of manufacturing such systems and are aiming to launch FCVs in the Japanese market—mainly in the country’s four largest cities—in 2015. The automobile industry hopes to popularize the use of FCVs after their initial introduction as a way of tackling energy and environmental issues.

[Graeme]

Fuel cells could hit it big in 2011

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') new study released by Pike Research indicates that fuel cells – hydrogen-powered devices that generate electricity – could be poised for significant growth this year, especially when used for auxiliary power units (APUs) on commercial trucks and other vehicles.

Pike noted that the the fuel cell industry is growing even in the wake of the global economic recession, with the sector’s overall revenues exceeding $750 million last year.

Markets such as uninterruptible power supplies, residential combined heat and power (CHP), power for remote monitoring equipment, APUs, and portal power for military applications, have all experienced an increase in traction over 2010, said Kerry-Ann Adamson, the firm’s research director

“Fuel cells are finding a place in an increasing number of commercial applications, and 2011 is shaping up to be a big year in terms of market development,” Adamson stated. “Industry consolidation is a trend that has been long anticipated, but will only accelerate during the course of the year. In addition, new issues have sprung out of nowhere in the past year such as concerns over supply of rare earth metals.”

[Graeme]

The drive toward hydrogen vehicles just got shorter

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')esearchers have revealed a new single-stage method for recharging the hydrogen storage compound ammonia borane. The breakthrough makes hydrogen a more attractive fuel for vehicles and other transportation modes.

In an article appearing today in Science magazine, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) and University of Alabama researchers working within the U.S. Department of Energy's Chemical Hydrogen Storage Center of Excellence describe a significant advance in hydrogen storage science.

Hydrogen is in many ways an ideal fuel. It possesses a high energy content per unit mass when compared to petroleum, and it can be used to run a fuel cell, which in turn can be used to power a very clean engine. On the down side, H2 has a low energy content per unit volume versus petroleum (it is very light and bulky). The crux of the hydrogen issue has been how to get enough of the element on board a vehicle to power it a reasonable distance.

Work at LANL and elsewhere has focused on chemical hydrides for storing hydrogen, with one material in particular, ammonia borane, taking center stage. Ammonia borane is attractive because its hydrogen storage capacity approaches a whopping 20 percent by weight—enough that it should, with appropriate engineering, permit hydrogen-fueled vehicles to go farther than 300 miles on a single "tank," a benchmark set by the U.S. Department of Energy.

Hydrogen release from ammonia borane has been well demonstrated, and its chief drawback to use has been the lack of energy-efficient methods to reintroduce hydrogen into the spent fuel once burned. In other words, until now, after hydrogen release, the ammonia borane couldn't be recycled efficiently enough.

[Lore]

Unless we can develop economical hydrogen vehicles within next 10 years, this supposed technology that will save our happy motoring ways is a myth.

[Graeme]

Germany to Get Hydrogen Fuel Station Network

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he development of a German network of hydrogen filling stations is gaining pace. The automotive manufacturer Daimler AG (FRANKFURT: DAI) (ISIN DE0007100000) and the Linde technology group announced in Stuttgart that they intended to open 20 new filling stations in Germany over the next three years. This will more than triple the number of public hydrogen filling stations in the country. The new stations are to be set up in the regions of Stuttgart, Berlin and Hamburg, which are already supplied with hydrogen, and along the most contiguous possible North-South and East-West axis. For the first time, this would enable every location in Germany to be reached by a fuel-cell vehicle by the year 2015.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]NEW REPORT SHOWS HYDROGEN VEHICLES WILL DRIVE CHANGE
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oday, the National Hydrogen Association released a new report called the "Energy Evolution: An Analysis of Alternative Vehicles and Fuels to 2100." The Energy Evolution shows that a scenario which initially includes a mix of alternative vehicles, and is later dominated by hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles sales is the only way to simultaneously cut U.S. greenhouse gas pollution by 80% below 1990 levels; reach petroleum quasi-independence by mid-century; and eliminate nearly all controllable air pollution by the end of the century. The report also shows that an expansion of hydrogen stations is more affordable than most people think.

[Cloud9]

This will benefit the top one percent twenty five years from now. You simply cannot replace 100 years of infrastructure with a scientific study.