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It's The Evil Thing...

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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 24 May 2011, 20:52:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'O')pposing unrestricted ownership of automatic weapons is not the same as opposing gun ownership.

If the AW Ban of the 90's had squat to do with automatic weapons, you might have a point... as it is. not so much.

The point is that wedge issues are used by parties to strip off marginal voters from their competition. The wedge issues rarely have any SERIOUS impact. The question in this thread is whether the Koch Brother's are somehow uniquely evil when compared with any of the other large donors for the US political machine. My assertion is that they are no more evil than the others; its just that for the writers in this thread, the Koch brothers oppose their policy preferences; while the others I have mentioned support their policy preferences.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 24 May 2011, 20:59:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')o you actually believe corporate interests are the same as yours?
Or do you think the party you like will get the benefit in the short term so it's OK?


I align my interests much more with the corporate side than the labor union side. Both have significant down sides for me though.

But mostly, the party I like is a primary beneficiary of these guys; just as the Democrats are the primary beneficiary of the ones I mentioned before.

I do disagree with the idea that the Koch Brothers are this incredible force that could take over the world. That's just absurd. Chance of China taking orders from Koch? 0.00%.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Lore » Tue 24 May 2011, 21:15:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') do disagree with the idea that the Koch Brothers are this incredible force that could take over the world. That's just absurd. Chance of China taking orders from Koch? 0.00%.


You're right and they won't. They are actually no different then the robber barrons of the last 150 years. There is always a bit of a disconnect in that these types in that they believe money can equate to the power to change ideas.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 25 May 2011, 00:19:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') align my interests much more with the corporate side than the labor union side.


Try as you might, Agent, to say there are no real issues involved and it's just two football teams fighting it out, it won't work. There are REAL issues, that have REAL impacts on the lives of average Americans. And you are on the side of the Corporations against the best interests of the American people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'I')t was the Democrats the passed the New Deal and created Social Security. It was the Democrats that created Medicare and Medicaid and the Food Stamp program. It was the Democrats created Unemployment Insurance.

These programs ensure that the elderly and the disabled do not die miserably after they no longer are able to work.

These programs ensure that children have proper nutrition and medical care during their formative years so that they may grow up to be productive members of society.

These programs ensure that the cyclical periods of recession/depression that we KNOW occur and will occur again in the future do not leave the unemployed unable to survive until the next upturn in the economy.

This is what the Democrats are about. The welfare of the people of the United States, the common good.

These programs the Republicans have tried to destroy since they were created.

These programs, at this very moment, are being targeted by the Republicans.

The Republicans have been at war with the working class since the end of the 19th century, when workers first organized to fight for better working conditions.

The Republicans now attempt to strip away all of the gains made by the American people over the last century. The American people by and large ARE the working class.

That is what this is all about.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 25 May 2011, 00:29:14

Stringing up the Koch brothers on a big oak tree together might solve a few problems in this country, and would not be a bad start, but it would barely scratch the surface.

Would be like nailing the street corner drug dealers on your way to get the Mexican cartels.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 25 May 2011, 00:30:54

No, it would be nailing the Cartel itself.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 25 May 2011, 00:58:41

I dunno... I think Wall Street is bigger.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 25 May 2011, 01:20:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') align my interests much more with the corporate side than the labor union side.

Try as you might, Agent, to say there are no real issues involved and it's just two football teams fighting it out, it won't work.


I think the point of what I wrote was to emphasize that there are real issues; but that the wedge issues are just fluff for distraction. The real issues are about size and power of government.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is what the Democrats are about. The welfare of the people of the United States, the common good.


Exactly the point of the debate, the Democrats believe in an exceptionally powerful government that takes care of the needs of it citizens. Republicans believe in the people being freed from the dictates and control of government as much as possible. The government should fear the people; not the other way around.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese programs the Republicans have tried to destroy since they were created.


Because these programs take free and independent people and make them servants and dependents of government.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Republicans have been at war with the working class since the end of the 19th century, when workers first organized to fight for better working conditions.

Just as the Democrats have been at war with working class people who do not wish to bow down before a union master. Refusal of a private ballot is all the proof one needs to understand this truth. For what good purpose does a union organizer need to know that MY vote was against formation of the union. There is none; that knowledge is there solely for the purpose of harassment and intimidation.

To a certain extent though, the game's already over. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid can not be fixed, and can not be sustained (not to mention the VAST unfunded pension liability that the feds are on the hook for). The combined weight of those programs is certain to crush the US like a bug on the windshield. Trick will be to avoid having one's family squished along with them. So, for me, the fight is mostly academic I suppose; an expression of core principles in the face of monumental cowardice and stupidity (of which I accept my full share of responsibility as an American too.).

The Democrats are too cowardly to raise taxes to match their desired expenditures.
The Republicans are too cowardly to seriously gut the handout system of the Democrats.
Both have had the opportunity to address their issue; and both have demonstrated their cowardice.

So now, the American people are used to miniscule taxes, a vast social welfare state, and wonder why we are having trouble.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 25 May 2011, 02:44:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'E')xactly the point of the debate, the Democrats believe in an exceptionally powerful government that takes care of the needs of it citizens. Republicans believe in the people being freed from the dictates and control of government as much as possible. The government should fear the people; not the other way around.


Does it ever bother you guys that your political theory exists nowhere else on this planet? At least not in any civilized, industrial nation. Other than tinpot third world nations, other than Hong Kong, can you point to even one Liberterian capitalist paradise? Can you find even one? Nope. I guess you could also point to China, but if you want to start saying we need to become China then you lose me there.

Bottom line.. the US used to be Liberterian. It was called the 1800s. It didn't work out, Agent. People suffered terribly.. one panic / boom bust cycle after another, many economic depressions with zero help for the starving and homeless, culminating in the Great Depression when by God people had finally had enough and you even had hordes of veterans marching on Washington demanding some kind of frickin' assistance.

Agent, your philosophy just cannot work in the face of massive suffering among the people.. that road leads to revolution. People can only take so much before they rise up. Luckily, FDR pushed some common sense help for folks and we avoided a crisis resulting in communism or fascism.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 25 May 2011, 07:49:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')efusal of a private ballot is all the proof one needs to understand this truth.


You got that backwards, bucko. Unions have always demanded a private ballot to protect the individual workers. It has been the employers (the industrialists) pushing for an open ballot, so they can know who is voting for the Union and get rid of them.

Your attempt to equate social programs with government oppression is rediculous.

People don't fear a government that picks them up when they've fallen, a government that makes sure that corporations aren't dumping toxic waste in their backyard because is was cheapest to do it that way.

People don't fear a government that ensures them clean drinking water and clean air. That guarantees that the food they eat and the medicine they take is safe.

People WANT the strongest regulations possible to keep the Corporations from peeing in their pool.

Unrestrained profit seeking is a failed ideology of the 19th Century. People will take up guns before they will let you take them back there.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Pops » Wed 25 May 2011, 09:24:09

I don't see the Kochs taking over the world or even as necessarily evil, just a couple of guys that inherited money and intend to keep it and get more. It's totally understandable, from their standpoint "every man for himself" is completely fair because they were born with the advantage. They aren't out to make a level playing field as is what many people would say is the American ideal, they are out to solidify their advantage.

Unfortunately the Bros have convinced some people at a much lower level that they are "opressed" by the social contract too. Lots of people in the US have kinda gone off the deep end on the whole individualist bit because life has been good these last few decades. I like to blame it on Reagan but but he just helped us to "find" our self(ishness). The Me generation's self-righteousness is really on full display right now and it's been giggered up in large part by wealthy people like the Kochs who are taking full advantage of the anger of old white people to try to eliminate whatever social obligation they, the capitalists, haven't already shirked.

Which isn't to say Libertarian and Republican voters don't refuse all government programs, just the ones they don't need personally.

My US Rep. for example, campaigned on eliminating income and inheritance tax entirely and, if you can believe it, replacing them with a 23% sales tax - and that's in the Ozarks where we aren't exactly in the top tier income-wise. Nevertheless, he was right there on the podium in Joplin calling for government money just like the Governor cum President of Texas did after their fires.

You know the saying," There are no atheists in a foxhole"?

Its also true there are no libertarians in an emergency shelter.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 25 May 2011, 09:34:44

Well said Pops. 8)
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Livewire713 » Wed 25 May 2011, 11:55:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'W')ell said Pops. 8)


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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 25 May 2011, 13:05:40

I Have to disagree pops. The Kochs "Solidifying their advantage" with total disregard for the misery they cause, is pure evil by any definition I am aware of.

This isn't some game. There are real outcomes for real people. Spewing misery for an extra buck, is just plain evil.
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The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 25 May 2011, 13:38:07

I have no great love for the Koch boys, but as much damage as these individuals have done, it is the system they epitomize that will continue to do the damage, no matter who the individuals are at or near the top.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Pops » Wed 25 May 2011, 14:17:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'I') have no great love for the Koch boys,

Sure, I really don't know much about these guys and don't care. Power wants more power, it doesn't matter if it's a bully on the playground or some guy who got lucky on their birth certificate.

There is also an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class. The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say that that form of government is the best which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government? The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent it's ascendancy.
-- Jefferson
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 25 May 2011, 14:21:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')gent, your philosophy just cannot work in the face of massive suffering among the people.. that road leads to revolution. People can only take so much before they rise up. Luckily, FDR pushed some common sense help for folks and we avoided a crisis resulting in communism or fascism.


I disagree.
Its a question of what you believe caused the suffering.
My *opinion* is that our government is the primary source of the suffering that many in the US are currently experiencing.

I understand that you disagree with that assessment.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 25 May 2011, 14:32:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ts a question of what you believe caused the suffering.

Bulls***. There is a reality outside of opinions. We know what caused the suffering, the same type of corporate and wall street fleecing, as caused the Bush market crash, and it was the programs created by the Democrats under FDR that addressed it and provided the needed assistance to the American people to aleviate it.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Wed 25 May 2011, 18:07:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Altered language.
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 25 May 2011, 14:40:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'B')ulls***.

Rabbits***.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Wed 25 May 2011, 18:08:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Altered language. (It's getting a little deep, gentlemen!)
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Re: It's The Evil Thing...

Unread postby AdTheNad » Wed 25 May 2011, 15:42:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') understand that you disagree with that assessment.

No doubt disagrees because it is complete nonsense. There is nothing wrong with having a government. Having no government would be substantially worse. What happens to 43 million people on food stamps if the government disappears? They don't suddenly all magically get jobs. They can't suddenly sustain themselves with no land. They would either starve or start taking what they need to survive. This does not make everyone better off.

The problem is the current flavour of government has been completely captured by corporate interests and no longer serves the average person. Government can also be captured by unions when they get to powerful, which would also prevent it from serving the average person, but if you believe this is currently the case you are off your rocker. Plus, when a union's influence gets too strong at least the outcomes are closer aligned with things that are good for the average person. When corporations and their owners become too influential the greed and profit at any cost mentality happily destroys peoples' lives, livelihoods and whole swathes of land. Only well designed regulation can stop this happening.
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