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PeakOil is You

THE Holidays Thread pt 2 (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 13:05:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')t's been $2.35 a litre in Arnhem Land and the rmote Kimberly for about 4 years.
BTW a gallon isn't 4 litres it's 3.78 so $3.65 is just shy of $1 a liter.
Rediculously cheap.


Here in North America, the farthest spot you can get from population centers is probably along the Alcan highway in the Yukon. I was driving through a few months back enjoying the scenery and gasoline was about $5/gal. $1.25/L or so?

Doubling it seems reasonable before we all carry on about how "expensive" it is.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 13:11:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', 'A')gain, the US not increasing its gas tax is the clearest sign of it being fully commited towards total economic suicide, it has cpmpletely given up, it's quite clear


Not a chance. It means we want our citizens to choose how to manage their discretionary income wisely, so we allow them to feel a reasonable measure of the price volatility in their fuel choices.

That they may choose the power for their transport wisely. Go Volt!
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 13:14:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') doubt if anywhere in mainland USA sells over $5 a gal.
Perhaps up in the outer reaches of Alaska or American Samoa.


You got it Gypsy. Goose Bay in Canada, near Whitehorse in the Yukon, Deadhorse Alaska, those types of places can get to $5/gal pretty easily. Paid that in the Yukon a few months ago when prices were cheaper than they are now.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 13:22:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Does this mean that you are supporting a higher regressive tax on poor people to justifiy your own Volt? Or have you become a AGW fanatic?


It means that everyone should make their transport choices wisely. The illusion of cheap fuel for all Americans disappeared right around 1973. Certainly no one capable of reading and learning some history would ever make that mistake again, poor or otherwise.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 15:47:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'M')erry Christmas for high fuel prices as well! With any luck, sometime next year, they could be DOUBLE that!

Bring on the burn!

Does this mean that you are supporting a higher regressive tax on poor people to justifiy your own Volt? Or have you become a AGW fanatic?


PSTARR, raising taxes on something like gasoline does NOT have to be highly regressive.

One simple idea would be to have a fairly sigfnificant tax credit for all families. Then you could raise the gasoline tax a LOT (it has to be a lot to wake sheeple up and induce meaningful change). Or you could make the credit bigger for lower income families, if needed. And it could be overall revenue neutral (gas tax vs. family energy credit) for all you hard liner GOPers going ballistic about now).

Now, poor people who choose to use fuel efficient cars (like say old Corollas which make fine basic transport cars), take the bus, ride a bike, live close to work, carpool, etc. could get great net income BENEFIT from such a tax.

OTOH, people who choose to drive massive SUV's long daily distances (such as exurb yuppie families) would have STRONG incentives to change. In fact, we ALL would have strong incentive to change, and even lots of small changes at the margins, would help a lot over time.

And green transport energy sources suddenly become a LOT more competitive. That speeds up their evolution toward massive practical application.

This (high gasoline taxes in the U.S.) doesn't have to be a bad thing, but to get it through would take political leadership with vision AND courage -- so I don't see it happening. The markets will do the work over time, and the poor will suffer MORE, as they won't get any such tax credit when it happens.

So let the flames of denial begin...
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Vogelzang » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 19:12:38

Maybe you can use zombies as a food source if they're not too rotten http://www.rotten.com
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Vogelzang » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 19:26:20

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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby ki11ercane » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 02:27:43

Gas is already $3.95 US$ per gallon taking into consideration exchange and subtracting out GST for my province. This is at a $91.00/barrel level of oil. Seems dis-proportionate to the last lead up when gas touched $4.54 US$ per gallon the last time oil was $147.00/barrel here. When oil hits $110.00/barrel, it's going to end up being $4.78 US$ per gallon which is more than at $147.00 per barrel, and $6.51 US$ per gallon at $150.00/barrel.

Looks like I am going to have to budget more money for fuel for all the shows I attend this year.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Arthur75 » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 02:38:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '
')
Not a chance. It means we want our citizens to choose how to manage their discretionary income wisely, so we allow them to feel a reasonable measure of the price volatility in their fuel choices.

That they may choose the power for their transport wisely. Go Volt!


The Volt isn't going anywhere, and so is America, being hell bent as it is on commiting total economic suicide, sorry but there isn't anything more obvious, and your ridiculous gas tax level is indeed a prime symptom of it (and one of the reasxon the volt isn't going anywhere)
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 06:15:25

Currently £1.29 a litre at local Supermarket. $1.99 = almost $10.00 per gallon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ki11ercane', 'G')as is already $3.95 US$ per gallon taking into consideration exchange and subtracting out GST for my province. This is at a $91.00/barrel level of oil. Seems dis-proportionate to the last lead up when gas touched $4.54 US$ per gallon the last time oil was $147.00/barrel here. When oil hits $110.00/barrel, it's going to end up being $4.78 US$ per gallon which is more than at $147.00 per barrel, and $6.51 US$ per gallon at $150.00/barrel.

Looks like I am going to have to budget more money for fuel for all the shows I attend this year.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 08:31:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'C')urrently £1.29 a litre at local Supermarket. $1.99 = almost $10.00 per gallon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ki11ercane', 'G')as is already $3.95 US$ per gallon taking into consideration exchange and subtracting out GST for my province. This is at a $91.00/barrel level of oil. Seems dis-proportionate to the last lead up when gas touched $4.54 US$ per gallon the last time oil was $147.00/barrel here. When oil hits $110.00/barrel, it's going to end up being $4.78 US$ per gallon which is more than at $147.00 per barrel, and $6.51 US$ per gallon at $150.00/barrel.

Looks like I am going to have to budget more money for fuel for all the shows I attend this year.


$2 times 3.78 is a touch over $8 a bit shy of $10

Refinery cost lag is the main explaination for barrel versus pump cost variation.
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 08:59:31

Sorry our gallons are a bit bigger :?
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby Roy » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 09:02:24

Take away Americans' subsidized gasoline (IE make them pay prices paid in other industrialized, so-called first world nations) and they will get very angry.

Try telling a republican that his fuel is subsidized, and watch him get very angry. Try telling a democrat... same same.

People don't realize that our gasoline in this country is heavily subsidized and that point has been proven on this site.

The 'real' cost of gasoline for Americans is about $6/gallon if one included costs of military occupations, defense of resource transport corridors, and environmental damages done due to our excessive use of this precious resource.

Others have said it here and elsewhere: "Think about how much work a gallon of gasoline really does.... How many men would it take to push a 6000 lb SUV full of people and luggage 10 miles, and how long would it take? How much food would they eat to ingest the necessary calories to perform the task? With a gallon of gas? About 10 minutes, possibly less".

Gas prices are CHEEEAAP! Way too cheap. Subsidies always create imbalances. We are way off balance in this way, and so many others. The return to balance is going to be very painful.

Merry doomer christmas to you MOS, and everyone here! And a happy F'n new year too!
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Re: A Very Doomy Christmas

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 09:50:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '
')
Others have said it here and elsewhere: "Think about how much work a gallon of gasoline really does.... How many men would it take to push a 6000 lb SUV full of people and luggage 10 miles, and how long would it take? How much food would they eat to ingest the necessary calories to perform the task? With a gallon of gas? About 10 minutes, possibly less".



Pushing at relevant speed and accelleration; impossible.

Here's an idea you gave me Roy; consider it a PO.com theme park concept.

To demonstrate the human dimension of energy involved in this equation.

Set up a 50 ton flywheel.

Gear it down and down and down until you can get it moving with 100 people pushing pedal powered treadmill.

Gradually gear it up an pedal pedal pedal!!!

Theoreiticly these highly athletic people will generate 2 kilowatts of power; storing enough energy in the flywheel to accelerate said loaded SUV to 100kph and travel 2km (to be kind to our athlete's let's say a gradual acceleration peaking at the end point) will take approximately 3 days.

Release the clutch and PULL the SUV to highway speed in reasonable time and distance.

(DISCLAIMER: I am not a mathmetician; call the above figures an educated guess based on 100kw used out of 200kw capacity on an average SUV>)

I think that's about right, just taking off at the lights on a highway is the equivalent of 100 people working their backside off for about 3 days. Look at that in food calories 100 times 3000+ a day and high speed travel starts looking like a luxury.
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