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THE Vegan & Veganism Thread

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 12:26:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')t's nice to all take a moment to reflect how the mind can create these obsessions that cause us to depart from common sense.

Seeing these animal-eating carnivore obsessions can be instructive as it is an opportunity for all of us to ask ourselves..........am I free of obsessions that cloud my judgement?



Fixed it for you. :)


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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby lulubel » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 14:25:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')hanks for the 'cheesy' idea, but I eat a ton of egg whites, but very little cheese. It's just that I happen to eat a small amount of cheese on eggs and some on an occasional veggie sandwich... oh, and on occasional pizza!


It's still a massive amount of calories by comparison. Eggs and cheese are also more calorie dense than vegetables because they're not "filled out" with lots of water and fibre, which both contribute to bulk, but don't contain any calories.

It's actually very common for people to gain weight when they stop eating meat and fish because they replace them with cheese. Even a vegetarian pizza can easily top 1000 calories, which is half a day's requirement for a moderately active woman.

Why do you only eat egg whites, by the way?
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 14:36:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')hanks for the 'cheesy' idea, but I eat a ton of egg whites, but very little cheese. It's just that I happen to eat a small amount of cheese on eggs and some on an occasional veggie sandwich... oh, and on occasional pizza!


It's still a massive amount of calories by comparison. Eggs and cheese are also more calorie dense than vegetables because they're not "filled out" with lots of water and fibre, which both contribute to bulk, but don't contain any calories.

It's actually very common for people to gain weight when they stop eating meat and fish because they replace them with cheese. Even a vegetarian pizza can easily top 1000 calories, which is half a day's requirement for a moderately active woman.

Why do you only eat egg whites, by the way?


I shouldn't say, 'no' egg yolks, because that would be an exaggeration ... but I eat very few and next to none intentionally. The reason stems from an old weight lifters diet from decades past stating that excessive cholesterol is found in yolks so it's best to avoid them. So, I suppose that's why. Although it's common knowledge that vitamin D and other essential vitamins and minerals are found in yolks, I choose to avoid them. It's probably mostly just an old habit. They end up in the disposal, but maybe I should compost them. :)
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby lulubel » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 14:57:48

Yolks aren't bad for you any more ... apparently.

And if you're physically fit, even having high cholesterol isn't bad for you any more ... apparently, according to some doctors, although others disagree.

I just eat what I enjoy. It's easier And if I can still run 10 miles, and my clothes fit, I don't worry too much about the details.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Narz » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 15:27:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'F')rom what I gather, to eat 100% vegan you need a wide range of produce that can't all be found in one California farmers market. You need tofu for starters, a wide variety of grains, all kinds of beans.

When I was vegan I ate none of those things (I was a raw foodist).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'L')ook at a vegan cookbook sometime.. lots of complicated recipes with hard to find and expensive ingredients.

I didn't have any cookbooks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]How was I dependent on thousands of impoverished third-worlders exactly??


Well for starters didn't they make your TV? And your toaster?

Don't have either. And what does that have to do with my diet?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')nd the clothes on your back, and most everything else in your home? I'm talking about the folks in the Chinese sweatshops, the Mexicans who pick your produce, and African miners, all the global cheap labor without which a privledged first world upper middle class lifestyle wouldn't be possible.
I try to get things 2nd hand & not over-consume but overall I think my impact is far less than your average American.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'N')ow if someone is vegan just because they want to for themselves that's one thing. My point is about the vegans who preach it and somehow think the whole world should eat that way.
I don't like those types either.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'W')hich is impossible -- those bushmen in Africa NEED their scrawny cows. The hundreds of millions of Chinese poor need maximum crop yield per acre and any spare protein they can get. Even vegetarian Indians cannot afford to be 100% vegan -- yogurt, milk, and cheese are a critical part of their diet.

All I'm saying is that vegans should recognize most of the world's people doesn't have the luxury of that lifestyle choice, and so not enough people could ever become vegan to ever make a global difference. Therefore, they should drop the moralizing and carnivore guilt trips.
ok but I'm not talking to most of the world, but I'm talking to 1st worlders who are reading this thread so is anyone "talking" on the Net.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 16:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'o')k but I'm not talking to most of the world, but I'm talking to 1st worlders who are reading this thread so is anyone "talking" on the Net.


Yeah but isn't the whole green / vegan movement about finding global solutions to global problems? Can't be a global solution if it only applies to upper middle class first worlders.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 16:44:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', 'I')'ve never had any physiological problems with dairy, although I'm very aware that animals aren't designed to consume milk as adults.


Actually, we've been drinking milk for so many thousands of years that most of us have evolved to be perfectly lactose tolerant. Some of course aren't.. if you researched their genome, you'd probably find they have some ancestors from non milk-drinking populations.

In ancient Greek / Roman times, I don't think southern Europeans drank any milk, not sure about cheese. I do know that the barbarian northern Europeans drank a LOT of mare's milk -- these were horse cultures, on the move all the time, so milk and cheese were necessary (crude cheese was basically curdled milk, made right there in an animal bladder bag while the rider traveled).

SeaGypsy made a similar comment about how odd it is we drink milk (only species to do so or something like that). In my view, there's nothing odd about it at all, animals use other animals all the time -- either in parasitic or symbiotic relationships. It's clear our relationship with cattle is SYMBIOTIC -- we use them for milk, meat, leather, and in return we feed them and propagate their species. We both need each other, nothing unnatural about that.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 17:09:29

Adult ppl do not need milk.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 18:01:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'A')dult ppl do not need milk.


Yes you can get the same nutrients from other animal products -- but what's wrong with milk and cheese? What, you don't like any kind of cheese or even yogurt?

This is where the vegan stuff gets really silly. Things like milk and eggs are basic ingredients in countless dishes. What do vegans think, that our entire Western culinary tradition is immoral? And what would you replace it with.. to my knowledge there has never been a vegan civilization in the history of the world.

And in India, which probably has the most vegetarians anywhere, because they don't eat meat then yes they DO need dairy -- milk, cheese, lots of yogurt.

EDIT: Another thing about milk.. it's more efficient than meat:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nimal milk is known to have been used first as human food during the Secondary Products Revolution, around 5,000 BC. It is presumed that when animals such as cattle were first domesticated, it was only for purposes of meat. Dairy products obtained from the animals proved to be a more efficient way of turning uncultivated grasslands into sustenance: the food value of an animal killed for meat can be matched by perhaps one year's worth of milk from the same animal, which will keep producing milk—in convenient daily portions—for years.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk#Food_product_for_humans


So.. dairy cattle are a great way of getting food out of marginal land. Milk is efficient, providing ongoing sustenance every day for years. It's even peak oil certified -- you don't need any technology or even good land to have a dairy cow. How can anyone argue with that?

And really, I'm surprised there are vegans on a peak oil forum. We talk about post-collapse survival, so how is it logical to cut your food options in half? You've just doubled your odds of starvation.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 18:48:19

I luv cheeze. :-D
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 19:26:22

I luv mi rum & cokes. :(
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Expatriot » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 20:37:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'L')astly, strict veganism makes no sense to me.. you're not hurting a cow by consuming milk or cheese. Bottom line.. physiologically we're omnivores. That's why our species was successful, since it's an obvious advantage to not be limited to just plant or animal matter.


Your inability to understand the feelings of others is downright republican.

If you don't think milk cows lead a horrible life, you need to spend a few days in a commercial dairy facility - don't forget to see what happens to the bull calves.

Our species was successful because of tool use and language - diet is not nearly as important or omnivorous skunks would rule the earth and we'd eat carrion.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 22 Nov 2010, 20:50:44

Well I am enjoying this here thread mightily, Pstarr kicks the gong and really makes her ring, and VM, well VM I think I would pay you $10 just to walk around the grocery store with me and opine. It would put the joy in grocery shopping fer sure, I would just have to put the cart behind your ass and push you out of the cheese section.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby lulubel » Tue 23 Nov 2010, 09:27:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', 'I')'ve never had any physiological problems with dairy, although I'm very aware that animals aren't designed to consume milk as adults.


Actually, we've been drinking milk for so many thousands of years that most of us have evolved to be perfectly lactose tolerant. Some of course aren't.. if you researched their genome, you'd probably find they have some ancestors from non milk-drinking populations.


Not from what I've heard. Lactose intolerance is extremely common in asthmatics, which is why I reseached it in the first place (and even experimented with cutting dairy out of my diet for a while). And there are a lot of asthmatics in the developed world, so I would suggest lactose intolerance is a lot more common than you're implying.

I should probably also add that lactose intolerance is apparent in a lot of asthmatics because its main symptom is a build up of mucus in the lungs, which makes asthma worse. This doesn't mean it doesn't occur at the same rate in the general population, who probably wouldn't be aware of it because their lungs are not already fragile.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby Olaf » Tue 23 Nov 2010, 16:03:43

Holy drama queen Batman!

We are designed to eat at least some meat. The only vegan I know has more health problems than practically anyone else I know; very similar to the problems this woman described.

She was perfectly healthy when she ate meat.
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Re: A Vegan No More

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 23 Nov 2010, 16:55:39

We have the eyes of a hunter, not a grazing animal.
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