General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
by Xenophobe » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 19:34:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', 'I') wonder how many people will ever know, or ever WANT to know what's really behind the "financial" crisis.
There are millions of Americans who speculated in real estate, and bankers who encouraged them to no end, who know exactly why the financial crisis happened.
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by Xenophobe » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 19:51:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')A Prius is no more an electric car than the 1994 Geo Tracker sitting in my driveway.
Sure it is. Heck, the electric motors alone probably put out more power than a tracker, and don't require a drop of gasoline to do it! (by the way, I had a 1998 Suzuki Sidekick, same thing, loved that little car, cute as a button, bit short on range but a wonderful little college kid car)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Both have a few batteries and small electric motors. I use my electric motor to start the engine, and in a pinch (with the key in the ignition and the car in 4x4-low) I can pull a stump with the DC motor. Your hybrid can't even do that.
My hybrid wasn't purchased to pretend to be a pickup truck, it was purchased to save me from peak oil! Whats wrong with you? The most horrifying, earth shattering event in the history of mankind and you decided that a pretend truck was the solution? If you wanted an SUV to ride around in the post peak world you should at least get a REAL one..Armada? Sequoia? Suburban? Excursion? Get with the program!
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by americandream » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:11:39
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'R')ight now few people, even here at PO, are willing to concede the financial crisis is peak oil. There are so many avenues of denial, so many competing theories on the cause of our problems:
--capitalism/socialism
Whilst I am inclined to agree that the truth of capitalism's failure will be masked in a bid to continue withg the decadence for as long as can be prolonged, it isn't exactly rocket science that a contrasting systen that is not profit based, has no private ownership and is collectivised with an emphasis on the future planning of children numbers, would be a darned sight more sustainable and is in fact the core of the issue.
On the other hand, all this talk of permaculture, tribal regression and all the other mumbo jumbo that does not address the problems of prfofit and private ownership, in its infancy or fully corporatised, is in fact the very denial that will keep bringing us here until we are compelled by geology to do that which is right and logical.
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:18:02
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'O')n the other hand, all this talk of permaculture, tribal regression and all the other mumbo jumbo that does not address the problems of prfofit and private ownership, in its infancy or fully corporatised, is in fact the very denial that will keep bringing us here until we are compelled by geology to do that which is right and logical.
Addressing profit and private ownership is useless if not accompanied with sustainable practices such as permaculture. Your dogmatism is breathtaking.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:22:27
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', 'I') wonder how many people will ever know, or ever WANT to know what's really behind the "financial" crisis.
There are millions of Americans who speculated in real estate, and bankers who encouraged them to no end, who know exactly why the financial crisis happened.
It appears that you are blaming the world's financial meltdown on a few bad mortgages? Laughable at best. Most likely, quite sad.
I hate to admit it, but I'm with Shorty on this one. The effect high oil prices had on the 2008 crash was merely the extra cost of the oil had on the people's budget and ability to pay. Frankly, the crash would have happened anyway at some point, as is the nature with all such bubbles. And given we live in a global marketplace, with derivatives trading all over the place, the effect was always going to be a global banking crisis (with or without the oil cost component).
As for future lack of growth and recession etc, you're no doubt right. But let's not keep crying wolf.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by americandream » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:28:09
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'O')n the other hand, all this talk of permaculture, tribal regression and all the other mumbo jumbo that does not address the problems of prfofit and private ownership, in its infancy or fully corporatised, is in fact the very denial that will keep bringing us here until we are compelled by geology to do that which is right and logical.
Addressing profit and private ownership is useless if not accompanied with sustainable practices such as permaculture. Your dogmatism is breathtaking.
Lol. You clearly haven't bothererd to contemplate my postings, have you. I shall repeat myself for you. I have said and maintain, our relationship with this planet in terms of jettisoning private title is an essential first step. Otherwise, in the absence of the collectivisation of resource usage, all is mere tinkering as any attempt to reign in the excess of private without ridding ourself of private title, simply falls back into the natural function of the private, profit by any and all means, and is thereby corrupted.
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americandream
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:33:53
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'O')n the other hand, all this talk of permaculture, tribal regression and all the other mumbo jumbo that does not address the problems of prfofit and private ownership, in its infancy or fully corporatised, is in fact the very denial that will keep bringing us here until we are compelled by geology to do that which is right and logical.
Addressing profit and private ownership is useless if not accompanied with sustainable practices such as permaculture. Your dogmatism is breathtaking.
Lol. You clearly haven't bothererd to contemplate my postings, have you. I shall repeat myself for you. I have said and maintain, our relationship with this planet in terms of jettisoning private title is an essential first step. Otherwise, in the absence of the collectivisation of resource usage, all is mere tinkering as any attempt to reign in the excess of private without ridding ourself of private title, simply falls back into the natural function of the private, profit by any and all means, and is thereby corrupted.
You presume wrong. Whilst I agree that change will be necessary, I see it coming out of the chaos that our current system will be left in rather than 'an essential first step'. I also don't class permaculture as mumbo jumbo, and see showing small-scale permaculture as the essential first step to some kind of subsequent agrarian reform. Why bother reforming land owneship etc when you have no solution to a lack of fossil fuels/pesticides/fertiliser etc? You seem to have your priorities in the wrong chronological order.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by Ludi » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:47:18
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')You presume wrong. Whilst I agree that change will be necessary, I see it coming out of the chaos that our current system will be left in rather than 'an essential first step'. I also don't class permaculture as mumbo jumbo, and see showing small-scale permaculture as the essential first step to some kind of subsequent agrarian reform. Why bother reforming land owneship etc when you have no solution to a lack of fossil fuels/pesticides/fertiliser etc? You seem to have your priorities in the wrong chronological order.
I see these changes happening simultaneously. Changes in land ownership will and must occur with the development of a different way of life, one based on right relation with the natural world. But nothing will happen unless we begin. I prefer to begin now, rather than waiting for "the revolution."
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by Ludi » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:49:38
And I enjoy the characterization of actually DOING something as "mumbo jumbo." That's a hoot.
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by americandream » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:52:11
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'A')nd I enjoy the characterization of actually DOING something as "mumbo jumbo." That's a hoot.
Hahaha. It's interesting how liberal capitalists would rather resort to derision than face the facts. There can be no sustainable management of this planet without the extinguishment of the private and all that entails, including significant loss in personal freedoms.
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:53:15
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')You presume wrong. Whilst I agree that change will be necessary, I see it coming out of the chaos that our current system will be left in rather than 'an essential first step'. I also don't class permaculture as mumbo jumbo, and see showing small-scale permaculture as the essential first step to some kind of subsequent agrarian reform. Why bother reforming land owneship etc when you have no solution to a lack of fossil fuels/pesticides/fertiliser etc? You seem to have your priorities in the wrong chronological order.
I see these changes happening simultaneously. Changes in land ownership will and must occur with the development of a different way of life, one based on right relation with the natural world. But nothing will happen unless we begin. I prefer to begin now, rather than waiting for "the revolution."
My Dad has been telling me that the revolution is just around the corner for forty years.
As you say, get on with doing what you can practically now. This will hopefully be of benefit to your family and also an example to others when they do finally get a bit of land to work. The more people do this, the more quickly it will be seen as a viable alternative in the future when alternatives are needed.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 20:56:20
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'A')nd I enjoy the characterization of actually DOING something as "mumbo jumbo." That's a hoot.
Hahaha. It's interesting how liberal capitalists would rather resort to derision than face the facts. There can be no sustainable management of this planet without the extinguishment of the private and all that entails, including significant loss in personal freedoms.
So are you suggesting that anyone who buys land is a Capitalist? We aren't all buying to accumulate wealth. Some of us are buying because, well, no one's going to give it to us. And we realise that actually getting on with the practical learning process is more important than some ideological stance where the revolution just has to come first. You're committing yourself to inaction and pontification.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by americandream » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:00:34
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')You presume wrong. Whilst I agree that change will be necessary, I see it coming out of the chaos that our current system will be left in rather than 'an essential first step'. I also don't class permaculture as mumbo jumbo, and see showing small-scale permaculture as the essential first step to some kind of subsequent agrarian reform. Why bother reforming land owneship etc when you have no solution to a lack of fossil fuels/pesticides/fertiliser etc? You seem to have your priorities in the wrong chronological order.
I see these changes happening simultaneously. Changes in land ownership will and must occur with the development of a different way of life, one based on right relation with the natural world. But nothing will happen unless we begin. I prefer to begin now, rather than waiting for "the revolution."
My Dad has been telling me that the revolution is just around the corner for forty years.
As you say, get on with doing what you can practically now. This will hopefully be of benefit to your family and also an example to others when they do finally get a bit of land to work. The more people do this, the more quickly it will be seen as a viable alternative in the future when alternatives are needed.
And they have been telling us for what, 10 years, that peak oil is around the corner.
Viable alternatives will not work until we dispense with the habit of parcelling up our world into personal title, then inculcating the tendency in the owners to squeeze that parcel of property for all they can make out of it. Even if one were to overlay ethics over that template, greed would soon overwhelm it.
If I am performing a service here, its to advice you to expect disappointment right till the bitter end, when capitalism collapses and the the hand of nature compels us to collectivise.
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americandream
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by mos6507 » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:03:46
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daniel_Plainview', '
')It is sufficient to show that PO has been a substantial factor in causing the 2008 meltdown; and, even though oil is the lifeblood of the economy, it would be a mistake to assert that peak oil has been the sole factor in causing the current depression.
It would be a mistake to assert that peak oil was the primary factor. It may be a primary factor in preventing us from pulling out of it, but we're now so far in debt that we're not gonna pull out anyway, hence blurring things for a great while.
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by Quinny » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:05:22
I understand the direct link doesn't jump out, but IMO the separation between financial system and real wealth is directly linked to peak oil. If there is no money to be made from making things, lets create bubbles to show the illusion on wealth. Hi tech, Housing, bailouts. TPTB have to try and keep the sow on the road!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lulubel', 'I') wonder how many people will ever know, or ever WANT to know what's really behind the "financial" crisis.
There are millions of Americans who speculated in real estate, and bankers who encouraged them to no end, who know exactly why the financial crisis happened.
It appears that you are blaming the world's financial meltdown on a few bad mortgages? Laughable at best. Most likely, quite sad.
I hate to admit it, but I'm with Shorty on this one. The effect high oil prices had on the 2008 crash was merely the extra cost of the oil had on the people's budget and ability to pay. Frankly, the crash would have happened anyway at some point, as is the nature with all such bubbles. And given we live in a global marketplace, with derivatives trading all over the place, the effect was always going to be a global banking crisis (with or without the oil cost component).
As for future lack of growth and recession etc, you're no doubt right. But let's not keep crying wolf.
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
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Quinny
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by Ludi » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:08:18
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'A')nd I enjoy the characterization of actually DOING something as "mumbo jumbo." That's a hoot.
Hahaha. It's interesting how liberal capitalists would rather resort to derision than face the facts.
You're committing yourself to inaction and pontification.
It's interesting the person who used the words "mumbo jumbo" is accusing me of resorting to derision. I'm just guessing americandream reads my posts as little as I read his (I have him on ignore). He doesn't seem to notice that I call for revolution every chance I get.
I also like that americandream, who is a day-trader for a living, derides me as a "liberal capitalist." When I promote the Sharing and Gift economy pretty much constantly.
Like I say, I reckon he doesn't read my posts much. And that's ok. We have different world views. He's a communist, I'm an anarchist/socialist or something (not sure really what you'd call me).
In any case, he's just a talker, not a do-er.
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Ludi
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by davep » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:08:55
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')And they have been telling us for what, 10 years, that peak oil is around the corner.
However, Peak Oil is a geological certainty.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'V')iable alternatives will not work until we dispense with the habit of parcelling up our world into personal title, then inculcating the tendency in the owners to squeeze that parcel of property for all they can make out of it. Even if one were to overlay ethics over that template, greed would soon overwhelm it.
We won't even know what viable alternatives are unless we experiment with them. How do you go about proposing such alternatives when we have to wait for the revolution first?
And packaging land into parcels for families does not necessarily mean they will over-use the resource. It is the current system that is doing that, which also tends to larger and larger farms.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I')f I am performing a service here, its to advice you to expect disappointment right till the bitter end, when capitalism collapses and the the hand of nature compels us to collectivise.
You have no idea what others think here, so your deluded self-importance is quite comical.
I happen to agree that elements of collectivism will form a huge part of any successful future. I just don't like your dogmatic and downright lazy approach that the revolution has to come first.
What we think, we become.
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davep
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by mos6507 » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:10:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')If I am performing a service here, its to advice you to expect disappointment right till the bitter end, when capitalism collapses and the the hand of nature compels us to collectivise.
Lots of ideologues are licking their chops that collapse will reveal that their -ism was the one-true-path. Unfortunately, most of these have pretty horrible track records. Communism being one.
BTW, the hand of nature has compelled humans to do lots of things besides collectivize.
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