[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')But the surgeon will still be paid more because if the salaries of car salesmen rise substantially, thousands of people will try to enter the market, driving down wages. The same is not true for surgeons. Higher incomes for surgeons do not easily translate into more people entering the job market. (The elasticity of supply for surgeons is fairly low.) Especially considering we haven't increased the number of medical school graduates in 30 years.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I')f history is any example Pretorian, and I posture it is our only real reference. The hated, in your case rich quickly flee the coop with their wealth before things get really violent.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', '
')The point here is: at both the top and the bottom of the system there exist a lot of people who have managed to figure out a way to vote themselves benefits from the treasury.

...

But the point is, that it for every worker in the country now, he or she is having to support himself, plus pay taxes for the support of 2 other people.... do I have the math right on that? Yes, I believe I do.....a tax-paying workforce of about 100 million and a total population of 300 plus..

Of course like I keep saying.... this is not really what is happening... we're actually borrowing money from the nation's 3-year olds without them knowing about it to keep this whole game going.

We're stupid. That's the only conclusion I can come up with. This whole thing does not add up. Why the 1/3 does not rise up and put a stop to this is beyond me...

[deMolay]

I have retreated to my Gulch. Began the move about 20 years ago. When the cities go feral, I really don't care anymore. I paid millions in taxes in my working career and it was never enough. Each year the "Man" took more. Here in Canada taxes now consume more of the middle class working families annual budget than the cost of Food, Clothing, and Housing combined. Assuming that you are paying a mortgage or rent. The government mandated pension plans are all unfunded. The healthcare is unsustainable and is now consuming almost 50% of Provincial budgets. It will collapse eventually. Governments here are struggling now to decide do we keep funding healthcare for everything and everyone or do we fund free schools and maintain roads and waterworks etc. Grant you Canada looks pretty darn good from the outside. But if you crunch the numbers it is completely unsustainable. The US is just further down the road than we are in some regards.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I') have retreated to my Gulch.

...

The healthcare is unsustainable and is now consuming almost 50% of Provincial budgets. It will collapse eventually. Governments here are struggling now to decide do we keep funding healthcare for everything and everyone or do we fund free schools and maintain roads and waterworks etc.

[deMolay]

Then and Now Part 2. http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/ ... -part-two/

[pup55]

Sorry to beat this dead horse one more time....

I think there is a fundamental disconnect between myth and reality. I used to buy into some of it myself, to tell the truth, but frankly, the events of the past couple of years have led me to question absolutely everything.

The US was founded on the myth that all men are created equal. This was a construct of the original declaration of independence, and perpetuated by Lincoln, but it is quite clear right now that the best predictor of your future success in life, however you wish to determine success, is the zip code in which you were born, and/or, how good of a job you did in picking your parents.

the second myth, which I believe also sprung up early on, is that if you work hard, you will get ahead, and we are living in the land of opportunity. What we have actually seen over the past few years is a disconnect between hard work and reward, and one only need read the headlines to see that this is the case. I think this started to die during the 80's in the buyout era, when you could be working hard in a place that got bought out, or otherwise went broke from management stupidity, and you went down with the ship no matter how hard you worked, but I believe that the current situation with the banker bonuses as part of the bailout will finally kill this notion the rest of the way. If you are incompetent, as long as you do it on a big enough scale, the government will bail you out.

So, given that, if you are one of the members of the permanent underclass, what's the point? You have two strikes against you the minute you come out of the womb. The people around you, your support structure, are oblivious.

Your local school system is half assed, your parents are indifferent, and you are left to figure out on your own. One in a hundred thousand will actually have the drive to get themselves out of that situation, particularly if it is easier to stay in it. Work the government relief system and it will be fun.

I can almost see some sort of system in which some of this is leveled out. You take a little from the "fortunate ones" and share a little on the low end, because we do not want to get into a situation like it was at the turn of the last century, where people literally were starving in the shadows.....

But, if we agree for the moment that all people are not created equal, should we not go the rest of the way and extend that to voting rights? After all, if you are in a situation where some people are better off than others, smarter and more industrious, and you are going so far as to extract money at the point of a gun from one person and give it to another one, why should both have an equal voice at the ballot box? This is also a construct of the two myths. If you weren't so lazy you would have some income and be able to vote like me.... our society places value on wealth and power, but that is not necessarily what is valuable.

It's a terrible problem but in our case it is made worse by the notion of these two myths, in which a pretty substantial percentage of the population does not see where these people should not be able to support themselves.

I am not sure but I don't think believe that some of these other little nations have this as a fundamental set of values. Maybe it is peculiarly American. Dunno.

All I do know is, people do what they do until they can't, at which point they do something else.

[Expatriot]

Pup55 - I agree with much of what you write.
They said, "all men are created equal."
I never took this to mean "equal" in intellect or physicality.
I always took it to mean "equal" before the law.

Regarding the "work hard - get ahead - land of opportunity," I'm not sure I agree with your implied definition of "work hard."

I don't think putting in 40 hours a week and doing a decent job is "working hard."

E.G. - the folks at Ford and GM who put in not a second more than 40 hours a week, and, if they did put in more they wanted extra pay for it, and who had the union protecting them if they did at least a decent job, did not, IMO, "work hard for an opportunity in the land of opportunity."

Pretty much, these folks did the least amount possible to get what they wanted, and nothing more.

I'd say the following has been true for a long time in America, and is, still, tenuously true - if you're willing to really work hard in America, the opportunity for success is there.

Even the unemployed 20% of American workers today still don't get it. Most are looking for easy work for big money. I've got an acquaintance who has been unemployed for almost 2 years. Guy is a real lazy SOB. Even when he was working he was watching 8 hours of TV a day. He got laid off 1st when his tool and die shop slowed down. Why? Because he was doing the least possible amount of work to stay hired. Worked great until the slowdown, then . . . whoops. So what does he do when he's unemployed? He does nothing. He collects unemployment for the ghastly long time the Feds have been willing to give it to him. Only when it runs out does he start looking for work.

The only job he's come close to sniffing an offer at was paying 12 bucks an hour. He made 18 or 20 an hour. He's "offended" that someone thinks he's only worth 12 an hour. Here's the kicker - he hasn't gotten the offer yet.

What else? He drives a 12 MPG truck for no particular reason. Doesn't appear to be required for the 12 hours of TV he now watches. But there it is.

And if you ask him, I'm sure he'd tell you that the "land of opportunity" concept was all bullshit.

Opportunities are still there. Thank your neighbors - they tend to be ignorant and obeast and lazy, and they tend to think that they're worth 40k a year doing monkey work in front of a compuker screen.

You have, maybe, another 5 years to capitalize on their ridiculous premise before the competition will really begin.

Make hay.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')Opportunities are still there. Thank your neighbors - they tend to be ignorant and obeast and lazy, and they tend to think that they're worth 40k a year doing monkey work in front of a compuker screen.

[Expatriot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o basically, what you're saying is, most people would rather lose their house, car, and other possessions rather than work for less money than they were used to getting.

[pup55]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ASHINGTON — Government anti-poverty programs that have grown to meet the needs of recession victims now serve a record one in six Americans and are continuing to expand.

More than 50 million Americans are on Medicaid, the federal-state program aimed principally at the poor, a survey of state data by USA TODAY shows. That's up at least 17% since the recession began in December 2007.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ASHINGTON — Government anti-poverty programs that have grown to meet the needs of recession victims now serve a record one in six Americans and are continuing to expand.

More than 50 million Americans are on Medicaid, the federal-state program aimed principally at the poor, a survey of state data by USA TODAY shows. That's up at least 17% since the recession began in December 2007.

[pup55]

You're obviously right. I have ranted about this topic before...

Deep down, in their heart of hearts, I believe most of the people that are in the workforce, or in the society in general, know whether or not they are adding value to something, or I would rather say, are well aware that they are actually not adding value to anything. I am talking now about the bean counters, administrators and others....

At least if you are standing on an assembly line and turning a wrench, at the end of the day you and a lot of other people built something....

But I think not adding value to anything actually drains your life force. It's depressing, and that goes double for those who get paid somehow for not adding value, and there are a lot of those people around. That's why a lot of people have hobbies like woodworking or gardening, building furniture...... home brewing? yeah. They are more satistfied emotionally that at the end of the day because they have added value to a pile of sticks....

So maybe Kunstler's world where people make things by hand, people are more emotionally satisfied. Maybe there will always be a certain number of loafers around. I don't know.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', '
')But I think not adding value to anything actually drains your life force. It's depressing, and that goes double for those who get paid somehow for not adding value, and there are a lot of those people around. That's why a lot of people have hobbies like woodworking or gardening, building furniture...... home brewing? yeah. They are more satistfied emotionally that at the end of the day because they have added value to a pile of sticks....