[paimei01]

1. Imagine an entire nation functioning like a military camp. Everything is organized, people work - and obtain what they need to run the camp. The purpose - sustainability, freedom and the basics for all. Money are banned, people - will have lots of free time - to spend as they want. Travel, play, create, compete, whatever. They will not need "jobs". They can do whatever they want - as long as they don't interfere with the functioning of the camp, and they don't destroy. The camp - uses the best of human inventions - to keep everything going, but it offers only the basics. No "luxury" - cars, mansions, and so on. People are allowed - to leave the camp if they want, and sustain themselves if they chose - but there are no money, so the people who live on their own will not be able to become capitalists, and take more than they need, just to sell - this means - not turning the planet into money. Also - no land ownership. People who want to build stuff outside the territory owned by the "camp", if they move from the land they stay on - the land is free again. Also there will be places - national parks and the "very nice places" - where nobody can move and make his farm. Totally free land.
They are allowed - to build whatever they want - cars, yachts, even the St Petersburg palace, as long as they do it for themselves and for fun, not for "profit". My theory says - people do not like to kill the planet, they will be free, not caught in jobs that have consequences they don't control, so they will not start destroying nature "for fun". Peak oil would be almost irrelevant now - it will affect us after some 300 years. This works only for nations that have the resources to be self sufficient. It does not work for Saudi Arabia.
Destruction will be limited, if some people want a Ferrari - they will need to start almost from nothing. If there are not enough passionate people - to help with all the production - there will be no car, there are no poor people that will do whatever you tell them to do, because you condition their survival on that. Everyone can participate in the "camp" (nation) and get the basics. Nobody will need a job mining the metal for that car - nobody needs to destroy the Earth and waste his time - just to survive. Only - if people have the same passion, they will gather, and create - whatever they want, working because they want to. For "fun" - which in fact means "living".

2. A solution for today's mad system, without thinking about the planet, resources, people etc:
No more banks, no more taxes. One single state owned bank, it gives loans with no interest. You still need to show you can pay it, and pay the money you get, but with no interest. This - and the lack of taxes means - super economic growth. The state (minimized) - sustains itself by printing money. No need for taxes. These new money is what the economy needs to grow. They will not cause inflation. It's possible that the economy will need even more money than the state prints and spends - in this case money are thrown from helicopters, or something like that. Right now - all the new money the economy needs for growth come from the banks that create them from nothing and require interest. Because this is going on since 1500 - nobody can call it "theft" anymore. The bankers own us. If - the money the state spends - cause inflation (unlikely), taxes appear, and taxes will exist only until the inflation problem goes away.

[Narz]

Did you write this?

I think currency is useful myself though it is quite abused.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o more banks, no more taxes. One single state owned bank, it gives loans with no interest. You still need to show you can pay it, and pay the money you get, but with no interest.

[paimei01]

What did I say ? That is a "state bank" - that is no real bank. Just gives money. And the state - maintains itself by creating new money.

[Tyler_JC]

I suggest you read a little Hayek to get a better understanding of the serious problems in a centrally planned economy.

But let's just look at one tiny example. Milk production.

I assume that your society will have dairy cows and milk production. Hopefully, it will also have the means to turn raw milk into cheese and butter. We had both of those things during the Dark Ages so I hardly consider them luxuries.

Without a money system, how do you propose deciding how much milk should become butter and how much should become cheese? (Let alone how many cows should be raised, where they should graze, who should tend to them, what kind of cows to raise, what kind of barns to build, where to build the barns, etc.)

Are we to turn our food manufacturing system over to a super computer which will calculate our exact preferences, much in the way Citigroup's super computers calculated the value of credit default swaps on Lehman Brothers bonds?

We could just take last year's production numbers and use those as the standard metric for every year, adjusted for population. But if our preferences change how will a centrally planned milk production department adjust? How are consumers to learn if cheese is scarce without a price tag? How do you plan a production line if you can't be sure of the availability of raw materials?

The Market is able to provide an astonishing abundance of milk products while wasting less than 10% of total output. That waste would be reduced substantially if we removed dairy subsidies which encourage overproduction. It is physically impossible for central planners to know enough information to micromanage an economy. Even with modern super computers, the analysis is only as good as the data. And the data will always be subject to bureaucratic whims.

And if we can't even give everyone in your military camp access to butter on a regular basis, why even bother setting up this society? Who could possibly be better off?

I encourage you to look around the mess that is Romania. Ask yourself, why is Romania so poor and Switzerland so rich? Might it have something to do with the failure of central planning under Ceausescu?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'W')hat did I say ? That is a "state bank" - that is no real bank. Just gives money. And the state - maintains itself by creating new money.

[paimei01]

So - it's better - to borrow money from the Sith Lords, instead of creating them yourself. Borrowed money - created from nothing don't cause inflation or what ? I said - the economy needs new money to grow. And I said what to do in case of inflation. The state prints money - only for what it needs. For it's own workers. Not starting giant projects. But nvm that. I was trying to "fix capitalism"...

Ceausescu paid of Romania's debt to the Sith. That's why there were problems in 1985-1989. But - those were nothing compared with what we have now. Slavery. Just when he finished paying it - there was a coup. Yes he was not a saint - but he knew what was going on. A free country - independent from the global bankers - that must not exist!
I don't care about Switzerland. That level of prosperity cannot exist everywhere - with no slaves. Or energy.

The "camp - nation" - it's decided by someone what food people get. Is this hard ? Something like a hotel. But - just basic food, no coca cola, or chips or any other junk food. Food like it was 100 years ago. You don't like it - I am sure you will have plenty of time and land - to grow your own, to add what you like to eat. Make your own chips and cola. People will work running this "hotel- camp", and everything that makes it work. Starting with the mining for the machines that cultivate the fields. Still - it would be 1/10 of what we do today. Plenty of time left. No more homeless, hungry or this :
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034

[Pops]

Since money is free and everyone has as much as they want delivered by helicopter it obviously has no value so there is no need to print it or even have such a thing as banks.

"It's decided by somebody" what food to grow, machines to make, jobs to do, eh? Since there is no money, obviously these people work for food and shelter at the whim of "somebody".

Sure sounds like slavery.

[paimei01]

Money are not free. You deliver money by helicopter when you need to increase the money supply.

It's about the basics. Are you a slave if you work for the things you need to survive ?

[timmac]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '[')b]1. Imagine an entire nation functioning like a military camp. Everything is organized, people work - and obtain what they need to run the camp. The purpose - sustainability, freedom and the basics for all. Money are banned, people - will have lots of free time - to spend as they want. Travel, play, create, compete, whatever. They will not need "jobs". They can do whatever they want - as long as they don't interfere with the functioning of the camp, and they don't destroy. The camp - uses the best of human inventions - to keep everything going, but it offers only the basics. No "luxury" - cars, mansions, and so on. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '<')/div>

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'W')hat did I say ? That is a "state bank" - that is no real bank. Just gives money. And the state - maintains itself by creating new money.

[Pretorian]

Meaning that they did tried it once and complained ever since.

[americandream]

Absence of adequate central planning (management) is what got a certaion corporation into an increasingly terminal mess in a certain Gulf. CEO's are paid the vast sums they are simply because of their aptitude as command controllers who set the policies by which the corporation (country) operates.

The same logic aopplies in the family. Remove centrally configured policies for the day to day and long term functioning of the family and come the first significant challenge and there are no systems in place to deal with said challenge. Would anyone advocate letting kids bring themselves up by way of self interest?

And we apply this same bizarre logic to a planet chock full of people, vast resources and serious consequences were its management to fail!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') suggest you read a little Hayek to get a better understanding of the serious problems in a centrally planned economy.

But let's just look at one tiny example. Milk production.

I assume that your society will have dairy cows and milk production. Hopefully, it will also have the means to turn raw milk into cheese and butter. We had both of those things during the Dark Ages so I hardly consider them luxuries.

Without a money system, how do you propose deciding how much milk should become butter and how much should become cheese? (Let alone how many cows should be raised, where they should graze, who should tend to them, what kind of cows to raise, what kind of barns to build, where to build the barns, etc.)

Are we to turn our food manufacturing system over to a super computer which will calculate our exact preferences, much in the way Citigroup's super computers calculated the value of credit default swaps on Lehman Brothers bonds?

We could just take last year's production numbers and use those as the standard metric for every year, adjusted for population. But if our preferences change how will a centrally planned milk production department adjust? How are consumers to learn if cheese is scarce without a price tag? How do you plan a production line if you can't be sure of the availability of raw materials?

The Market is able to provide an astonishing abundance of milk products while wasting less than 10% of total output. That waste would be reduced substantially if we removed dairy subsidies which encourage overproduction. It is physically impossible for central planners to know enough information to micromanage an economy. Even with modern super computers, the analysis is only as good as the data. And the data will always be subject to bureaucratic whims.

And if we can't even give everyone in your military camp access to butter on a regular basis, why even bother setting up this society? Who could possibly be better off?

I encourage you to look around the mess that is Romania. Ask yourself, why is Romania so poor and Switzerland so rich? Might it have something to do with the failure of central planning under Ceausescu?

[evilgenius]

Scarcity is why you need money, not imagination. You are right that you have to fix capitalism. It sounds to me like you might have read Marx with an eye toward what he wanted rather than what it turned into. If so, then you know he always advocated that capitalism had to evolve into communism. He never said it could be forced, only taken advantage of through realization that would bring about revolution. It took Lenin and Stalin to say otherwise.

Essentially we do battle with the notion that equilibrium is some kind of absolute value rather than a living range. As long as we stick to some kind of absolute value the high priests of the markets reign. Discover it is a range and they sing. You see, in order to inhabit a range whole systems of rights for those we ignore currently have to be developed, along with elements of exchange that don't favor storage of wealth that is productive in name only, but which actually runs counter-productive to the interests of humanity.

[paimei01]

My system gives you the basics, and the work for them. You are caught in your imagination - thinking about concentration camps. In first world countries 3% of the workforce (not population) work in agriculture and they produce enough to export, also they produce lots of junkfood and they throw away a lot. Add more people - that produce the machines, and everything else. You will not go over 10% of the workforce. This "camp" produces nothing more than the basics. Most of the people will have nothing to do. They will work in turns. If they work in turns - this does not mean they obtain the results of the work only when they work, they get them all the time. So - you mantain this system 1-2 months a year. Or maybe 4 years in a life time. After that - you go to the storage place - to get the stuff you need. You will not take more than you need - because you know it's for all, and you don't want to be seen as greedy. Also - there are no money, what could you do with more ?
Here, people are not greedy or evil by nature. Give them a "we" to participate, and :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7495717.stm
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;People are only taking what they need, because they know it's for everybody," he said.

[Pops]

The thing you overlook is that people don't want just basics, otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we are doing at this moment - we'd still number in the low millions worldwide and be eating seeds and berries under a tree.

Sitting under a tree is great, but it's better with a woven mat, better still if the woven mat has a backrest, even better if the mat is given legs - and arms, why not a table and a glass of juice and a good book?


On the other hand, there is no reason you can't spend 10% of your time growing food and the rest sitting under a tree.

[hillsidedigger]

Why should there be a source of loans or credit? It would be so much better if people simply saved until they could purchase and pay in full. The purchase price would be much less.

Usery is the root of all evil.

[paimei01]

hillsidedigger see this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... y+as+debt#
The economy needs new money to grow. Now all the new money come from the banks - with interest. So they cannot ever be repaid. In my sistem the loans do not generate new money- they are destroyed when they are returned. New money come from what the state spends, and if that's not enough for the need - new money are just sent to the people.

Pops - maybe I don't have a farm?
Look at these people:
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034

Do you think it's OK to blackmail anyone - either work for something you don't care, with consequences you don't control, or die ? Do you think everyone has the option to - just go and grow his own food ? In your imagination - people choose to work because they want more than the basics. Give them access to the basics, then we will see. Of course they will work - for more. But you will not see people like the ones in the link above. Instead of boring 8 hours jobs - people will find other ways to improve their lives beyond the basics.

This is the story you are looking for, page 24:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7829413/Danie ... My-Ishmael

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'P')ops - maybe I don't have a farm?

[paimei01]

Do you manage to live in the country with no job ? I am not Gypsy.

[hillsidedigger]

"The economy needs new money to grow."

Who said there will be, can be or should be any further economic growth? At best, I think a planned decline lasting for the next several decades and then from then on is the only path to a soft-landing of sustainability.