[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')on't cattails require special harvesting equipment? Granted they are a wonderful plant, but, tend to grow in places it will be difficult to drive a tractor....

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', 'M')aybe they should focus their efforts on another type of organism than yeast to get the alcohol. Kind of what the bovine stomach does.

I dunno, just thinking out loud really. Thanks for the reply.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'I') am confused.

Going back to Aarons point, can you clarify something for me please Lorenzo?

Was the energy profit calculated on the return of 5,000 barrels per acre or 200,000 barrels per acre?

In other words if they put x barrels of energy inputs in and they calculated the profit on getting 200,000 back (when they in fact only got 5,000), then surely that means that they DID NOT get a 540% return in energy invested?

Or was the 5000 barrels produced at a 540% energy proft? (ie it took less than a 1000 barrels of energy equivelant to produce?)

Please someone clarify

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')s many of you may be aware I have worked hard to carve out a particular niche here at PO--lambasting Lorenzo. Somehow this particular bash passed unnoticed under my radar and I must say I am a bit put off by all this. How dare you kick lorenzo without me!! I should get in the first punch. This will be brought up with the appropriate moderators and perhaps I will have to go directly to the owner of this site until this situation has been rectified.

I considered asking everybody (except Lorenzo) to delete their posts so I would be the first respondent. But I would have just called him dumb or a 'tool.' Where is the fun in that? In the future I would appreciate being told of in advance when Lorenzo is going to be humiliated. thank you.

[gampy]

This bio-fuel debate just looks like a Peter robbed Paul to pay Mary kind of scenario.

Corn and sugar cane produce carbohydrate, but require more land and
agriculture.

Celluose requires less land and fertilizer, but more energy to crack the cellulose.
Kind of a zero sum game here.

Petroleum is millions of years worth of phytoplankton (energy from the sun) crushed by gravity, and earth's own internal heat (another energy source. )
All stored conveniently in a liquid fuel.

Nothing we can do can replace that. Unless we look for another source of STORED and CONDENSED energy.

The low hanging fruit is gone, and instead of looking for a way to get the high fruit, we are nibbling on the twigs, and shoe leather.

It will fill our belly, but it tastes bad and causes problems.

Only thing I can think of is radioactive uranium. Funnily enough, another product of the sun (not ours, but the big exploding ones that fed our own solar system.)

Just need to find a way to make it useful for transportation. (Say good bye to the ICE.)

I think it would more wise to start moving away from liquid fuel, and
developing modes of transport that can make use of nuclear energy. (Fusion or fission or something else?)

Just thinking about the grand scheme of things.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')Just thinking about the grand scheme of things.

[gampy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')Just thinking about the grand scheme of things.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')Nuclear fuel and nuclear generated electricity is certainly no where near as easy as oil, but at least it does not require the massive inputs that raising fuel crops does, or trying to turn wood into a fuel.

[gampy]

Well, they require energy to build and maintain, but fission certainly releases more energy than is required to start it. That's all I am saying.

It's stored energy.

Growing corn or what have you is not stored energy. It's derived from whatever amount of arable land and nutrients are available. Those are certainly not renewable. Sunlight and photosynthesis can only take you so far. Not on the scale that some folks are talking about. There is only so much energy to be derived from a single growing season. It won't support a highly energy intensive civilization.

I can't see a technology arising that can make a go of it.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')Nuclear fuel and nuclear generated electricity is certainly no where near as easy as oil, but at least it does not require the massive inputs that raising fuel crops does, or trying to turn wood into a fuel.

[Starvid]

You are all idiots (OT-commenters excluded).

Switchgrass ethanol has been shoved to have an EROEI of 5,4 (540 %).

Maybe we should discuss this instead?

Potential? Price? Problems? Etcetera.

[Heineken]

Mass agriculture has done more damage to the Earth than any other single human activity.

Now, even as we are for the first time grasping the extent of the damage, and its terrifying implications for the future, we are launching a gigantic expansion of agriculture to include not only food growing but also fuel growing.

Madness begets madness.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PopeGideon', 'R')ead it. Unimpressed.

These studies are all tainted with assumption.

You want to convince me?

Do this - it shouldn't be too difficult, with millions in taxpayer assistance.


Set up a farm that is entirely run on the ethanol it produces.

Entirely.

That's it. No petroleum input at all.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'L')orenzo you are a piece of work. You ripped into good reputable scientists Pimentel and Patzek, you ignore my comments and responses, and know you want to have a gentlemanly discussion. You remember that avocado you used to display on your avatar? Well you can shove it right back up there where it used to be.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ith greater production per acre, how will you keep from depleting the soil?

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'m just not so convinced of the net energy benefit. It takes a great deal of work to move materials around, even in a small space. Hence the benefit of using animals, as they move themselves around, rather than vehicles.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'m just not so convinced of the net energy benefit. It takes a great deal of work to move materials around, even in a small space. Hence the benefit of using animals, as they move themselves around, rather than vehicles.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'W')hats the price of fuel in your area?