[RealJoe]

I have been doing a lot of reading on JohnDenver's blog: www.peakoildebunked.com and liking a lot of what the site contains. Since I am aware that he was either banned from this forum or left in rage, I am wondering how many of you have read his site and what you think of it? Doing a search of the forums for peakoildebunked did not yield any thread specific to commenting on its contents.

Should admit that in the flame wars between Montequest and JohnDenver and Wildwell that I was basically on the side of Montequest. This opinion was inspired by the impolite and often caustic exchanges between the parties involved, but also because I understand the reasons for ecological and environmental limits to population and economic growth. In fact the realities that will make catastrophic population die-offs a certain is a continuation of car-culture, modern levels of consumption and the ignoring of environmental concerns and limits.

That said however, www.peakoildebunked.com has a lot of very thought-provoking and damn-right useful information. The posts and threads on conservation and land-use changes as necessary and probably quite effective peak oil mitigation strategies are simply excellent and well worth reading. As are many of the posts about new energy technologies and how they can be implemented into our economy allowing for a transition to a less wasteful, but still modern and abundant culture. Many of these technologies and economic strategies will be available and cost-effective soon, if not already.

JohnDenver, James and Wildwell are probably right in that human ingenuity is very powerful and there is no reason to lie down and die in the face of peak oil consequences. Forward and constructive thinking and societal action are the types of positive behaviors we need to reinforce if we expect to survive and prosper in the coming end-of-cheap-energy era. This web site offers lots of value and useful information and has done much to turn my own thinking from doomerism and expecting the end of civilization in the next decade and a half to the belief that surviving peak oil with a high degree of prosperity and safety is at least possible.

On the downside, you should be warned that JohnDenver is continuing his war against peak oil pessimists on his site and many, many posts and comments are quite critical attacks, unnecessary insults and putdowns of peak oil pessimists (and perhaps peak oil realists), including many of the most notable posters on this forum. These attacks unfortunately go so far as to label many doomer-type of peak oil writers as fascists and psychotic. Excepting this relatively inexcusable behavior, the web site is a good source of information however.

[johnmarkos]

Actually, JohnDenver is still around and posting now and then.

POD (and its companion Google Group) is fun. Good signal to noise ratio, too.

[lakeweb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'P')OD (and its companion Google Group) is fun. Good signal to noise ratio, too.

[dukey]

part of the problem is
we use SO much energy

just take the car
how many miles has your car done ? 100k ? Then you realise the circumerferece of the planet is like 24k. So how many times has your car been 'round' the planet. How much energy does it take to move 1 tonne of steel and your fat ass that distance, probably just taking you to work every day. It's a scary amount of energy no doubt. But also something we take for granted, and something the present economy relies on. Without your car taking you to work, you probably wont have a job to go to.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

His blog is just ok. He's not objective enough. He will see a news item about solar and jump on it saying, ok energy problems solved too simply. He's obviously spent alot of time researching on his blog but he is bias. You need someone with a blog who is liberal on both sides. JD is totally against PO, and more importantly he has steaming hatered against everyone who believes in PO. I believe we should be building rails and creating nuclear powerplants, and we will still have cars, but electric cars for short commutes of 50 miles or less, any greater, the battery would be too big for the car, so the person will have to use the trains, but it would still be perfect to take the kids to their soccer matches and pickup the groceries. It's like someone doesn't drive from Newyork to London, they catch a plane instead because it's quicker. It will be like that in the future but with rail, local transport in cars, and longer transports in trains. I don't believe PO causing many problems in the future, I'm more concerned about the financial situation of countires currently, that is more of a problem than what PO will ever be.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RealJoe', ' ')That said however, www.peakoildebunked.com has a lot of very thought-provoking and damn-right useful information.

[Leanan]

I think what JD either ignores or does not understand is the cost of complexity. It's a thermodynamic thing. Greater complexity requires more energy, just for overhead. When the cheap energy is gone, we will no longer be able to maintain our complexity - social or technological.

It took me a long time to come around to this view, since I am engineer who went into the field because I expected our technology to be like Star Trek's by now. It hasn't happened, and I've come to realize it won't happen. Technology really is slowing down. We're facing diminishing returns, and it's only going to get worse when the cheap oil runs out.

[killJOY]

I tried reading his blog, and when I got to the part where he compared peakers to terrorists, I stopped reading.

[orz]

He does seem to enjoy attacking people. But he and the other writers do have some good ideas that can be implemented on a national level. I think reading both sides helps people get a rational take on the many ways this thing can go. Since as much as numerous people on this board think they can see exactly how this all will unfold, the very complexity of the situation makes any such claim ludicrous, thus the need for more than one side.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RealJoe', ' ')As are many of the posts about new energy technologies and how they can be implemented into our economy allowing for a transition to a less wasteful, but still modern and abundant culture. Many of these technologies and economic strategies will be available and cost-effective soon, if not already.

[Flow]

I actually found this site yesterday and I have pretty much read the entire things.

There are a lot of things on there that I have been saying for some time. I think the author and I have a lot of the same beliefs. The difference is he has a lot more time to research some of the topics and present the data lot clearer than I could do with the time I have.

I will say, some of the things are kind of far fetched (like moving to space and stuff like that), but over all I think there is A LOT of great information on that site that further goes to show that Peak Oil is not going to happen in the next 5-10 years (sorry Doomers) but more likely in the next 50-100 years. He even says many times that he does believe that Peak Oil will happen eventually, but not as soon as some think it will be.

[sameu]

I read his blog
Not that often though

The things he states are mostly correct and well documented.

But he is doing the exact same thing as the doomers.

Doomers say solar energy will never safe our ass, JD says look a new solar cell, we're saved!

truth is, we don't know

we like to believe and reason as if everybody on this planet thinks the same way as us
but that's everything but true, and that's exactly what makes this so complicated, JD doesn't have a car, and states we don't need a car to survive, there haven been millions of people living without cars. But what he forgets is that there are also people who can't live without their car, in their minds that is, but that doesn't matter.
The US doesn't need to go on resource war per se, they could invest the money in new technology and conservation and all that. True, but that's just one option. And when your government believes it's better to start a war for oil. Well despite the fact that there are other options, we are still fucked.

It's not about what's possible, it's about what's happening. It's about the choices we make.
We people don't need alcohol to stay alive. But go telling that to an alcoholic. And go telling him about conservation when the price of alcohol doubles or triples...

[orz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')ruth is, we don't know

[Dukat_Reloaded]

If people started to begin using alternative energy sources at the inverse rate that oil production is declining, I can't see much of a problem happening. It's a slow and gradual change.

[sameu]

and we don't know what some researcher might pull out of his ass next week
say indeed in four to five years we have a cheap efficient solar cel
which everybody can purchase at a really cheap price
combined with some government support
It could easily reduce the electricity consumption with double digit numbers in the years after the launch.

It's not impossible I might think. I'm not saying this is going to happen. But why not.

[Free]

The paradox is that John Denver is working against the very solutions he is raving for. All the solutions need time, time we will only have, if at all, if the general public admits that there is a problem.

John Denver is the biggest doomer, because he works towards the doom with giving the cornucopians a rationale for doing nothing.

"Peak Oil Debunked? Great so we can just do business as usual!"

If being a doomer means that more people will be PO-aware because they understand how dire the consequences COULD be, I am all for it.

As soon as everybody is actually working for solutions I will turn into the biggest optimist on earth - at least pretending it.

We have to win the war against PO before the war even begins - once the first shot is fired, it's only fight fight fight.

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Flow', '.')..that further goes to show that Peak Oil is not going to happen in the next 5-10 years (sorry Doomers) but more likely in the next 50-100 years.

[Wildwell]

Some people have ‘got it’ with POD, others haven’t.

POD is NOT a cornucopian site, it’s about thinking about practical ways to deal with the Peak oil problem. It came about because most sites out there were the usual ‘end of the world’ and ‘the sky is falling’ type arguments. When these became attached to political movements, several of us thought it was about time to present ‘the other side of the story’ and look at solutions rather than the ‘business as usual’ and ‘crash the machine’ type model, whose negativism, although sometimes well intentioned actually leads to negative outcomes.

Don’t think we all agree on POD btw, we do have minor disagreements over many issues. Yes, JD has attacked some people personally (which I am against unless they are fascists in which case they get everything they deserve for being so dogmatic) and have brought this up publicly. But as JD says, it gets the hits. Which would you prefer, a popular fascist movement or a popular solutions driven movement?

The population issue it was felt was to be getting out of hand with some people and a careful look at other stats tells us that people were barking up the wrong tree.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1096

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1104

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=950

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ohn Denver is the biggest doomer, because he works towards the doom with giving the cornucopians a rationale for doing nothing.