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Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 16:44:03

Sorry Oakley, I quite often enjoy your posts, but Ron Paul's 'manifesto' is a total joke. You cut everything and end up with nothing. Where you gonna get your oil from without your foreign bases?

LMAO :roll:
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 16:56:15

We need to cut government down to zero and let darwninism happen.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 17:11:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'R')on Paul has made specific proposals to cut federal spending to the bone.

Close all military bases on foreign soil; end all current wars and bring our troops home; means test Social Security and Medicare, and allow young people to opt out (quit paying SS tax or Medicare tax, and get no benefits); close a multitude of departments (agriculture, education, commerce, etc., etc.); end our involvement in international organizations like the UN and the IMF and end foreign aid; end the war on drugs; phase out the Federal Reserve System, and get gold & silver in the hands of people to use as money, and for what is left of the federal government like government salaries, cut across the board to bring into line with private salaries.


Oakley, the problem is that the only part of the above that would ever pass is what I bolded.. "allow young people to opt out of Social Security." You guys paint this big Liberterian dream and average folks pick out two or three things they agree with but in reality the cool parts of Liberterianism is just cover for the same old Republican crap.

So forget the cool stuff, like gold standards and no more war and legal pot. Here's what a Republican Congress and a President Paul would mean:

1) Privatization scheme for social security, they'll call it "let the young opt out" but in reality it's just the beginning of eliminating SS altogether. SS would be weakened by funds diverted form the trust into Wall Street hands.

2) Tax cuts for corporations and the rich

3) Fewer regulations on corporations, everything from food safety to pollution to anti-trust

4) Cuts on any program that helps the lower 90%

5) More free trade deals, more job offshoring

That's it, Oakley. That's the reality of a President Paul.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 17:22:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'W')e need to cut government down to zero and let darwninism happen.

Well that would help with over population, though I don't think following the Somalia model gives the best societal outcome. And unfortunately I think the biggest parasites would just fly away unscathed.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Cog » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 17:32:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'P')rogressives never think its a spending problem.
How about cutting spending drastically AND raising taxes on both corps and pigs that got a bit too fat. Do we have a deal?




Ok as long as cut spending first and raise taxes 10 years from now. I know this reverses the normal way DC thinks but its worth a try.



What happens 10 years from now? You'll die or retire?


Collapse or something pretty much indistinguishable from it. But by all means run the deficits up as much as possible. Might as well party until the Titanic slips under the waves.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Oakley » Thu 14 Jul 2011, 20:31:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')orry Oakley, I quite often enjoy your posts, but Ron Paul's 'manifesto' is a total joke. You cut everything and end up with nothing. Where you gonna get your oil from without your foreign bases?

LMAO :roll:


Maybe we could do the honest thing and buy it instead of using force to take it.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby TITAN » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 00:05:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'P')rogressives never think its a spending problem.


Clearly it is a spending problem. The fact that we spend 1.5 trillion a year on defense is the number 1 issue.

Cut that in half (or more) and we'll be fine. I really don't think those 54 big bad terrorists from Afghanistan are gonna come over and get us anytime soon... (yes, that is the approximate number of 'terrorists' left that we spend 8 billion a month on...)
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Quinny » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 02:50:30

How much was the bank bailout?

Spending is an issue but pails into insignificance when compared to the bailout spending!
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 03:09:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o forget the cool stuff, like gold standards and no more war and legal pot.

Why so?
After all US is getting bankrupt, so the wars will be over and lost.
Police and DEA go derelict due to underfunding related to national bankruptcy, so there will be legal pot for sure and maybe even legal theft or rape...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere's what a Republican Congress and a President Paul would mean:

1) Privatization scheme for social security, they'll call it "let the young opt out" but in reality it's just the beginning of eliminating SS altogether. SS would be weakened by funds diverted form the trust into Wall Street hands.

Social security will not be privatized, it will just collapse chaotically due to lack of funding.
And yes, young peoples will opt out, because nothing what you might "opt in" will no longer be feasible.
On the other hand Wall street will lose 95%+ of its value.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')) Tax cuts for corporations and the rich

Hyperinflation will make taxes meaningless, unless they are paid in chickens and pigs.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')) Fewer regulations on corporations, everything from food safety to pollution to anti-trust

Not only fewer regulations but also fewer corporations.
Existing business models have run its course and they are heading for unraveling.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4')) Cuts on any program that helps the lower 90%
Indeed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5')) More free trade deals, more job offshoring
Nope.
Globalization is in its final fits.
Constrictions like monetary collapse or fuel shortages would prevent that from unfolding.
Jobs will come back to US but these will be Bangladeshi standard jobs which one can either take or (facing lack of Social Security, food stamps etc) die.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 14:09:06

*double post delete*
Last edited by Sixstrings on Fri 15 Jul 2011, 14:11:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 14:09:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'H')ow much was the bank bailout?


Wasn't it something like 800 billion? It's all a blur to me now.. all I can remember was there was a bankster bailout, then a stimulus and they were both somewhere around 800 billion ish.

Don't forget the Federal Reserve.. that's separate from Treasury spending, the Fed actually prints cash and hands it out to Wall Street. The Fed did it's own bank bailouts, plus the quantitative easing.

Tea Partiers could cut spending in Congress all they want, but it's meaningless if the Fed devalues the dollar.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 15 Jul 2011, 14:34:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')fter all US is getting bankrupt, so the wars will be over and lost.
Police and DEA go derelict due to underfunding related to national bankruptcy, so there will be legal pot for sure and maybe even legal theft or rape...


You're using nihilism to justify Republican policies. It's a common theme on this forum, and I do not understand it -- "the world is ending, let's give more to the rich and corporations." Why don't you ever look at it the other way, that if we're going to collapse then the rich don't need these tax cuts.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n the other hand Wall street will lose 95%+ of its value.


If you believe that, then why support Republicans? Old folks having food to eat, and a nursing home bed if needed is tangible good that can be achieved right now. Even if the world is ending five years from now, caring for the elderly right now is the moral and right thing to do.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')yperinflation will make taxes meaningless, unless they are paid in chickens and pigs.


I agree. Though I still don't see how that leads you to vote Republican.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')xisting business models have run its course and they are heading for unraveling.


What does that mean? We're talking about regulation. Republicans and Liberterians want to get rid of it.. I for one WANT the safety of products I consume to be regulated. You have to watch these guys like a hawk.. county next to mine privatized their water. Well guess what, to make more profits the company laid off maintenance techs. Then they diverted a lot of techs to shutting poor peoples' water off. The upshot is that the water quality sucks now, it's not maintained right, some fluoridaters are out of whack and pumping too much in. Others aren't working at all. They have boil water notices all the time.

Whereas in my county we have socialist, government water. They're well funded and persnickety about quality. I like that, my water is safer than the private water next door.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ope. Globalization is in its final fits.

If globalization is in its "final fits" then why support more free trade?

Liberterianism is definitely all for free trade. That's a core theology with them. It's fantastic for capitalists, and terrible for the working slob.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')obs will come back to US but these will be Bangladeshi standard jobs which one can either take or (facing lack of Social Security, food stamps etc) die.

Ah, now you're sounding Liberterian. Yup that's what they're all about. Have you ever seen the movie "Grapes of Wrath?" Or read the book? The family of Okies in that story winds up working for a company farm. Pay keeps getting cut, down to where what they're earning isn't enough to feed themselves from the company store. That really happened in the Great Depression. This is the endpoint of Republican and Liberterian ideology -- SLAVERY. I'm sorry, but slavery is un-American.

Republicans, corporate Democrats, and Liberterian theorists want to roll back every inch of progress the working man has made in the last 150 years. It's really incredible.

(I assumed in my post you're American, but I think maybe you said somewhere else you live in Poland. If you have a Polish perspective that's a whole other ball of wax..)
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 16 Jul 2011, 05:11:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')You're using nihilism to justify Republican policies. It's a common theme on this forum, and I do not understand it -- "the world is ending, let's give more to the rich and corporations." Why don't you ever look at it the other way, that if we're going to collapse then the rich don't need these tax cuts.

I have never said that world is ending.
It is actually Progressive/Liberal edition of consumerism and high tech civilization what is ending.
And it is ending due to fatal blows from Mother Nature, not due to actions of American Congress.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you believe that, then why support Republicans? Old folks having food to eat, and a nursing home bed if needed is tangible good that can be achieved right now. Even if the world is ending five years from now, caring for the elderly right now is the moral and right thing to do.

I do not support Republicans or Democrats.
From my perspective they are essentially the same if you forget some piddly details on abortion or homosexuals related policies which are a theater in any case.

Republicans are more brutal, but straightforward and Democrats are more fraudulent by promising entitlements which cannot be delivered even in theory.
However both these parties are working for the same elite.

So a Republican would say: "Lets take away from the poor security net and give money saved that way to our friends."

Democrat would say: "Lets promise the poor a lot and meantime fleece them out of money and transfer these money to our friends".
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') agree. Though I still don't see how that leads you to vote Republican.

Actually I was supporting Democrats but for a reasons not relevant to rich/poor haggling.
Obama wanted to cancel certain military project in Poland and I was incidentally against this project.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat does that mean? We're talking about regulation. Republicans and Liberterians want to get rid of it.. I for one WANT the safety of products I consume to be regulated.

This is very wide subject.
At the moment such regulations are often making a product very safe but entirely useless.
I am also finding no value at all in a statement printed on paint stripper that it is not a hair dryer.
Neither do I support regulation forbidding small farmers to sell directly their product to consumer.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hereas in my county we have socialist, government water. They're well funded and persnickety about quality. I like that, my water is safer than the private water next door.
Those who want safe water these days must dig a well and keep it clean.
Live in a big city and can't do it?
Tough luck, you will not have a safe water and it will also taste foul.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f globalization is in its "final fits" then why support more free trade?
I don't understand why free trade cannot be local.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')iberterianism is definitely all for free trade. That's a core theology with them. It's fantastic for capitalists, and terrible for the working slob.
On the other hand I have seen what socialism done to working slob in Poland about 20 years ago.
Failure was of such magnitude that in comparison to it American Great Depression was walk in the park.
We lost 40% GDP within 2 years or so.
And comparing to Russians (who had even more socialism than we did), we got away very light indeed.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')h, now you're sounding Liberterian. Yup that's what they're all about. Have you ever seen the movie "Grapes of Wrath?" Or read the book? The family of Okies in that story winds up working for a company farm. Pay keeps getting cut, down to where what they're earning isn't enough to feed themselves from the company store. That really happened in the Great Depression. This is the endpoint of Republican and Liberterian ideology -- SLAVERY. I'm sorry, but slavery is un-American.
From my far away perspective America actually *is* about slavery, racism, religious zealotry, sexism etc.
During last few decades you are trying to sweep these parts of American culture under the carpet, but they are deep rooted and don't be mistaken, they will spring back with a vengeance once economic growth is no longer possible, and existing economic model unravels as it surely will.
Call it Mother's Nature default or whatever but these parts of your culture ain't going to die.
Progressivism was only a temporary solution.
Its advance and decay is mirroring Hubbert curve of oil production with about 30 years time lag.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')epublicans, corporate Democrats, and Liberterian theorists want to roll back every inch of progress the working man has made in the last 150 years. It's really incredible.
Your worst worry is that it is also Mother's Nature call.
And she won't negotiate...
So to keep Progressivism going is an uphill struggle with no prospect of success.
More and more peoples are recently pointing it out but of course there will be some die-hards too.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:30:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TITAN', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'P')rogressives never think its a spending problem.


Clearly it is a spending problem. The fact that we spend 1.5 trillion a year on defense is the number 1 issue.

Cut that in half (or more) and we'll be fine. I really don't think those 54 big bad terrorists from Afghanistan are gonna come over and get us anytime soon... (yes, that is the approximate number of 'terrorists' left that we spend 8 billion a month on...)


Cite? Defense spending is about $700 billion right now.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Jul 2011, 19:36:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')Even if the world is ending five years from now, caring for the elderly right now is the moral and right thing to do.

Why do you assume that YOUR values and YOUR decisions are the "moral" ones, especially when spoken in absolutes like that?

We have resource constraint problems. Every nursing home person-year the elderly (some of who would rather die, but we don't even have the compassion or morals to give them the option) consume, takes a LOT of resources that could be used for things like well-baby care, nutrition, and simple but effective PREVENTATIVE medical care for the poor.

These things are trade-offs. (And Obamacare will ***NOT*** magically fix it!) For the left, however, it's NEVER enough -- and they will NEVER admit it. Just like for the right, ANY amount of taxes is too much, and there is NEVER enough military spending -- and they will NEVER admit it.

I think you have a lot of interesting ideas, Six. Sometimes your insistence though, that you have an absolute lock on what is "moral and right" is SO like the Obama administration mouthpieces that I just can't stand it and call you out on it.

This is one of those times. Nothing personal - just an ideology conflict.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 17 Jul 2011, 03:06:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')Even if the world is ending five years from now, caring for the elderly right now is the moral and right thing to do.

Why do you assume that YOUR values and YOUR decisions are the "moral" ones, especially when spoken in absolutes like that?

He has also forgotten that Progressive policies aimed at destroying family life and institutionalize elderly are immoral in the first place.
It is just whining about consequences of someone's conscious actions taken in the past.

Institutionalized elderly, welfare bums, soaring divorce rates, soaring teenage crime etc are all product of Progressivism after all.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have resource constraint problems.

Yes, but Progressives will never accept that.
So they will run the system until final ruin by Nature's defaults and then helplessly descend into Mad Max or feudal worlds.

I am not trying to say that everything in Progressivism is bad.
But I notice that Progressives will cling on to all the entitlement hubris, regardless of constrains dictated by natural world and in the process they are going to lose by default *all*, what they have gained during last 150 years.
We are already observing accelerating decay of state institutions as we speak.
That is only beginning...
As per economy, I believe that Austrian school has most to offer.

And I remember Keynes rather as a member of eugenic boards than a great economist.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:25:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'Y')ou can't have a rational discussion about the budget if military spending is off the table. The biggest welfare program in existence is the US military.
But it is one welfare program that cannot/will not be cut.

Better to have testosterone-addled 20-somethings occupying foreign countries than uneducated, unemployed, and angry back here in the states.


We need to cut EVERY program and raise EVERYONE's tax rates, since there are no grown-ups in the room (on either side) that can compromise instead of attacking the other side.

It just bowled me over when Obama said that the reason he couldn't go with Simpson Bowles is it "would cut the military too much". Although, come to think about it, we are now in THREE wars thanks to him (though of course we don't call attacking Libya a war -- that might require us to FUND it).

And yet, I don't seem to hear him talking much in the way of anything SPECIFIC except raising taxes on "corporate jet owners".

Neither side has any credibility. No wonder you can't have a rational discussion.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Cog » Mon 18 Jul 2011, 21:31:18

Maybe a downgrade on our AAA debt rating will serve to motivate our recalcitrant politicians to start communicating.
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Re: Ok Progressives, Balance the Budget

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 19 Jul 2011, 00:15:42

Poor people can downgrade from spaghettio's to dog kibble. They can put some milk in it to soften the kibbles.
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