by Quinny » Mon 16 Mar 2009, 18:57:14
You are joking aren't you?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')To kinda stay on topic did you notice the OP link basicly said let the free markets work and we will self correct?
There is no such thing as a Free Market. Its never existed since Isaac Newton and the Bank Of England instituted a fiat money system 300 years ago. In case you haven't noticed, this crash is precisely what happens to "free market" systems that become top heavy. The system repeatedly crashes. The main difference with this one is its worldwide, and we are fresh out of resources for the "free market" to plunder.
Reverse Engineer
Agree there are no true free markets (it''s a shame too). But you havent noticed that the markets that get the closest, like US have managed to spread wealth more effectivley (by far) that the most centralized economies like Russia? Even when USSR was flying high, there was no "middle class", pretty much everyone was poor except a few elite.
by simplelife » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 10:55:48
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only thing I noticed was that we stole more, both from the wealth of other nations and from the resources of the earth.
Actually, we didnt steal anything, we FREELY TRADED our hard labor (in times past) for there's, we did things we were good at, and traded for things they were good at(and resources). Their everyone benenifits, you simply dont undstand economics.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Basically, we went on an uncontrolled spending binge using up the Oil of the world as fast as we could. What couldn't be stolen through the markets was taken by brute force during WWII.
There's an element of truth there about spending(at least in the last 10 years), but it is mostly overblown nonsense.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Then an economic Ponzi scheme was set up by John Maynard Keynes and Harry Dexter White at Bretton Woods that allowed banksters to sieve even more of the wealth of the world into their greedy little hands. That it allowed a generation of Americans to eat cheap McBurgers and own plasma TVs is a short lived byproduct, but its most certainly not a result of any "equity" or fair distribution by the free market system.
I call burgers and plazma wealth. I suppose wealth to you means a bowl of rice a day. In that case, then you are correct others distribute better than we do.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')That is the biggest crock of shit ever sold, and you buy it hook line and sinker. As I like to say,
there are none so stupid as those who will not think :-)
Reverse Engineer
Maybe you need to stop and think then.
by simplelife » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 11:07:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')Agree there are no true free markets (it''s a shame too). But you havent noticed that the markets that get the closest, like US have managed to spread wealth more effectivley (by far) that the most centralized economies like Russia? Even when USSR was flying high, there was no "middle class", pretty much everyone was poor except a few elite.
The only thing I noticed was that we stole more, both from the wealth of other nations and from the resources of the earth. Basically, we went on an uncontrolled spending binge using up the Oil of the world as fast as we could. What couldn't be stolen through the markets was taken by brute force during WWII. Then an economic Ponzi scheme was set up by John Maynard Keynes and Harry Dexter White at Bretton Woods that allowed banksters to sieve even more of the wealth of the world into their greedy little hands. That it allowed a generation of Americans to eat cheap McBurgers and own plasma TVs is a short lived byproduct, but its most certainly not a result of any "equity" or fair distribution by the free market system. That is the biggest crock of shit ever sold, and you buy it hook line and sinker. As I like to say, there are none so stupid as those who will not think
Reverse Engineer
Statements such as these strike me as mock moral outrage, coming from someone who has lived their whole life high on the hog, fabulously wealthy compared to the rest of the worlld, sucking at the tit of our wealth creation machine.
Please, no longer participate in this corrupt society, more to another country that has a moral economic system that you love.....but you better pack some beans and meds you sucked from the bad guys.
by AgentR » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 13:13:26
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'W')hen Peggy Noonan has gone Doomer, then the end is nigh.
I thought you were kidding.
Then I read the article.
Financial types recommending a house, big or SMALL?!?!?, and some land to learn how to grow food on????!?!?!?
Oh my.
Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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AgentR
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by simplelife » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 16:34:55
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')Statements such as these strike me as mock moral outrage, coming from someone who has lived their whole life high on the hog, fabulously wealthy compared to the rest of the worlld, sucking at the tit of our wealth creation machine.
Please, no longer participate in this corrupt society, more to another country that has a moral economic system that you love.....but you better pack some beans and meds you sucked from the bad guys.
I don't need to go to another country. The poverty is coming right here to our shores, courtesy of the free market. I have the beans and rice packed already. Once the system collapses,
those who share and cooperate will be the ones who survive. Free marketeers will not last long.
Reverse Engineer
Translation "those who share and cooperate will be permitted to live"
I will take my chances with free marketers who also share and cooperate....voluntarily. That is the American way baby.
by simplelife » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 17:42:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')
I will take my chances with free marketers who also share and cooperate....voluntarily. That is the American way baby.
"Free Market" and "share and cooperate" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Like Jumbo Shrimp, Millitary Intelligence, Christian Logic or Republican Ethics.
Reverse Engineer
Wow, maybe we run in different circles, all my friends believe in freedom, and also give much to charity. Americans in general give billions to charity, and most also belief in free markets to a strong degree. I expect you are engaging in extreme hyperole.
by simplelife » Tue 17 Mar 2009, 21:52:29
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')Wow, maybe we run in different circles.
Of that there is no doubt. I don't hang out with simpletons. Its against my religion.
Reverse Engineer
anything constuctive? am I lying about my friends giving? Does americans not give billions to charity every year? most of which affirm free markets?
feel free to edit out any uncomfortable facts and type a witty blirb
by ReverseEngineer » Wed 18 Mar 2009, 04:35:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')Wow, maybe we run in different circles.
Of that there is no doubt. I don't hang out with simpletons. Its against my religion.
Reverse Engineer
anything constuctive? am I lying about my friends giving? Does americans not give billions to charity every year? most of which affirm free markets?
feel free to edit out any uncomfortable facts and type a witty blirb
I doubt you are lying about your friends giving, anyore than I doubt Bill Gates and Warren Buffett put excess earnings into their Foundation. Just probably your friends didn't get as any tax breaks for it. You have to look at this in aggregate, not in the anecdotes of "generosity". The question to ask is, "Would anyone consider Capitalism GENEROUS to others?" The whole point here is to accumulate wealth here for yourself, not to give it away! Its supposed to be some sort of meritocracy, where the smart hard workers are rewarded, but in practice it doesn't really work that way. Wealth centralizes over time, inherited wealth creates inequality of opportunity, control over the political process further centralizes the wealth, and eventually it crashes from dead weight. Happens over and over again.
It is however a pointless exercise arguing with you, because you don't adress these issues, you just hold it as fundamentally true that free markets are best for wealth distribution. You don't acknowledge that what they truly do is centralize wealth, not distribute it. You seem to think just because oil provided a better standard of living for the average joe this is wealth distribution. Its not. It was just a 300 year long rape of the earth and consumption of its resources, pretty much starting in earnest in the 17th century, but in fact going back to the dawn of agriculture. You just make comparisons between the system of the USSR and America during a short period post WWII, its not a good synopsis of how wealth has been manipulated through the time period from the days of Abraham to the present. I cannot however get you to step outside your box, so the arguments run around in circles, they are boring.
You observe the collapse as I do, but you don't see the truth. You won't acknowledge that we are collapsing due to the very principles behind the "free market", and the corruption that ensues. Moreover, you don't acknoweldge the Biblican injunctions against usury which also are part of the free market system. If you were a true Christian, you would never borrow or lend money, the Bible says "Never a Borrower or a Lender be". Or more specifically these injunctions:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('God', '
')
“Ex. 22:25 ¶ If you lend money to my people, to the poor among you, you shall not deal with them as a creditor; you shall not exact interest from them.”
“Deut. 23:19 ¶ You shall not charge interest on loans to another Israelite, interest on money, interest on provisions, interest on anything that is lent.”
“Psa. 15:1, 5 O LORD, who may abide in your tent? Who may dwell on your holy hill? … (those) who do not lend money at interest, and do not take a bribe against the innocent.”
“Luke 6:34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.”
by simplelife » Wed 18 Mar 2009, 11:12:29
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('simplelife', '
')Wow, maybe we run in different circles.
Of that there is no doubt. I don't hang out with simpletons. Its against my religion.
Reverse Engineer
anything constuctive? am I lying about my friends giving? Does americans not give billions to charity every year? most of which affirm free markets?
feel free to edit out any uncomfortable facts and type a witty blirb
I doubt you are lying about your friends giving, anyore than I doubt Bill Gates and Warren Buffett put excess earnings into their Foundation. Just probably your friends didn't get as any tax breaks for it. You have to look at this in aggregate, not in the anecdotes of "generosity". The question to ask is, "Would anyone consider Capitalism GENEROUS to others?" The whole point here is to accumulate wealth here for yourself, not to give it away! Its supposed to be some sort of meritocracy, where the smart hard workers are rewarded, but in practice it doesn't really work that way. Wealth centralizes over time, inherited wealth creates inequality of opportunity, control over the political process further centralizes the wealth, and eventually it crashes from dead weight. Happens over and over again.
It is however a pointless exercise arguing with you, because you don't adress these issues, you just hold it as fundamentally true that free markets are best for wealth distribution. You don't acknowledge that what they truly do is centralize wealth, not distribute it. You seem to think just because oil provided a better standard of living for the average joe this is wealth distribution. Its not. It was just a 300 year long rape of the earth and consumption of its resources, pretty much starting in earnest in the 17th century, but in fact going back to the dawn of agriculture. You just make comparisons between the system of the USSR and America during a short period post WWII, its not a good synopsis of how wealth has been manipulated through the time period from the days of Abraham to the present. I cannot however get you to step outside your box, so the arguments run around in circles, they are boring.
You observe the collapse as I do, but you don't see the truth. You won't acknowledge that we are collapsing due to the very principles behind the "free market", and the corruption that ensues. Moreover, you don't acknoweldge the Biblican injunctions against usury which also are part of the free market system. If you were a true Christian, you would never borrow or lend money, the Bible says "Never a Borrower or a Lender be". Or more specifically these injunctions:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('God', '
')
“Ex. 22:25 ¶ If you lend money to my people, to the poor among you, you shall not deal with them as a creditor; you shall not exact interest from them.”
“Deut. 23:19 ¶ You shall not charge interest on loans to another Israelite, interest on money, interest on provisions, interest on anything that is lent.”
“Psa. 15:1, 5 O LORD, who may abide in your tent? Who may dwell on your holy hill? … (those) who do not lend money at interest, and do not take a bribe against the innocent.”
“Luke 6:34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.”
