[jeffvail]

The important question to ask isn't "would we want to be back in the middle ages?", but "what can we learn from the differences between then and now to make tomorrow better?"

For example, if you haven't read "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins (one of the top 5 anthropology minds ever), you might want to... if for no other reason than to find out why he calls "primitive" hunter-gatherers the "orriginal affluent society." I'm not suggesting that we all aspire to become !Kung bushmen, but rather that we use these disparities to better understand what about society is the crux of our problem, and how to fix it.

Take hierarchy, for example. More hierarchy, more stratification, more specialization, etc. leads to more work for less return, more disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom. IMHO, one of the lessons to take from the working hours disparity is that the pattern of hierarchy itself is the place to focus our efforts...

~Jeff
www.jeffvail.net

[DesertBear2]

Year 1000- Masses of the faithful await the end of the world and know that Jesus will return to raise all the dead bodies from the grave and transport dead and living Christians into "heaven".

Year 2005-Masses of the faithful await the end of the world and know that Jesus will return to raise all the dead bodies from the grave and transport dead and living Christians into "heaven".

Yikes.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesertBear2', 'Y')ear 1000- Masses of the faithful await the end of the world and know that Jesus will return to raise all the dead bodies from the grave and transport dead and living Christians into "heaven".

Year 2005-Masses of the faithful await the end of the world and know that Jesus will return to raise all the dead bodies from the grave and transport dead and living Christians into "heaven".

Yikes.

[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'M')edieval Peasants also lived half as long.

-G

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'M')edieval Peasants also lived half as long.

-G

[NeoPeasant]

You don't have to look to the past. There are a few hundred societies and cultures in the world today. Surely among them you can find a model of living that would be satisfying and fulfilling without using nearly the amount of energy and other resources that we use now.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', 'Y')ou don't have to look to the past. There are a few hundred societies and cultures in the world today. Surely among them you can find a model of living that would be satisfying and fulfilling without using nearly the amount of energy and other resources that we use now.

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'M')edieval Peasants also lived half as long.

-G

[jaws]

Medieval peasants worked less because their extra work didn't do anything to improve their lot in life. They couldn't accumulate capital. Today people can and work harder to secure their life. They may not be any happier, but they are certainly a lot safer.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jeffvail', 'T')he important question to ask isn't "would we want to be back in the middle ages?", but "what can we learn from the differences between then and now to make tomorrow better?"

For example, if you haven't read "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins (one of the top 5 anthropology minds ever), you might want to... if for no other reason than to find out why he calls "primitive" hunter-gatherers the "orriginal affluent society." I'm not suggesting that we all aspire to become !Kung bushmen, but rather that we use these disparities to better understand what about society is the crux of our problem, and how to fix it.

Take hierarchy, for example. More hierarchy, more stratification, more specialization, etc. leads to more work for less return, more disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom. IMHO, one of the lessons to take from the working hours disparity is that the pattern of hierarchy itself is the place to focus our efforts...

~Jeff
www.jeffvail.net

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'I') haven't read the book but I've read that "primitive" hunter-gatherers worked fewer hours than peasants in agrarian cultures.
The trend seems to be to "peak employment" - everybody working 24/7. What happens after that?

[CarlinsDarlin]

http://www.simpleliving.net/timeday/

On a related note - the "Take Back Your Time Day" movement was one of the things that prompted me to begin seriously considering quitting my full-time job and begin living more simply - developing my homestead.

Check it out.
K

[Leanan]

Yes, it was mainly infant and childhood mortality that skewed life expectancy (and still does, in 3rd world nations). But that's still rather unpleasant. I remember reading about a society in South America where infant mortality was so high that parents were afraid to love their children until they were 3 years old or older. Unless an infant was very strong and vigorous, they often would not even try to care for it. They were Catholic, and even the priests turned the other way when babies were allowed to die. Mothers would bring their living babies to be given last rites, and the priests would oblige, knowing it meant the parents were going to let the child die of neglect.

Also, adult women often died in childbirth. You can see this in the U.S. census figures. Today, women tend to live longer. (Hence the "condo cowboys" - elderly men with a different ladyfriend on every floor of the old folks' home.)

But this wasn't true, as recently as the 19th century. Look at the U.S. census figures for the 1800s, and adult men outnumbered adult women. The only exception was one year during the Civil War, when war deaths caused a brief blip.

That said...perhaps it doesn't have to be that way. Bhutan increased their life expectancy while remaining among the poorest people on earth, at least as economists measure such things.

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')I haven't read the book but I've read that "primitive" hunter-gatherers worked fewer hours than peasants in agrarian cultures.
The trend seems to be to "peak employment" - everybody working 24/7. What happens after that?

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')I haven't read the book but I've read that "primitive" hunter-gatherers worked fewer hours than peasants in agrarian cultures.
The trend seems to be to "peak employment" - everybody working 24/7. What happens after that?

[Auntie_Cipation]

Yes, it's possible. I quit my full-time, good-salary job a year ago. After spending a year doing home improvement projects and a few odd jobs, I've now taken a job working only 5 hours a week. This job will pay me something under $3000 per year. I'm still looking for a few freelance assignments, about 3 hours a week, enough to bring my total annual income up to about $6000. I believe this will be plenty to live on, given the preparations I've made (and already paid for, using money earned in earlier years).

Some of those preparations include: elimination of debt, living on paid-for remote homestead (no mortgage/rent) with well (no water bill), heat with wood we cut ourselves (no heating bill), electricity via renewable energy system (no electric bill), etc. The bulk of my expenses will be food, gasoline, internet service, auto insurance, the occasional pair of socks or new book, etc. Useful magazine subscriptions. Donations to causes I support. Now and then I might need a car repair or a dentist, maybe even some building materials for a fun project like a greenhouse.

Yes, I have some savings, but I don't expect to use them, not til I'm several decades older.

I was scared at first when I quit my job, wondering whether I could make it. Now I'm simply amazed that anyone could have time for a job! Too many other good things to do in life, like walk the dogs, watch the seasons change, grow a garden, build a shed, go exploring, watch Peak Oil approach...

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')aroshi is a point and click server setup for secondary schools running Mandrake Linux on the servers and Windows 2000/XP on the clients. It aims to allow a user who is not a Linux expert to get a server up and running in under an hour with minimal Linux knowledge. It provides a set of point and click server configurations for a primary domain controller, a file server for students' work, a print server with Web-based queue management, and a filtering and monitoring Internet proxy server.

[Gil-Galad]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', 'I')MHO every American ought to spend a year living in a 12' square cabin with a wood stove, no electricity and no plumbing, an outhouse and a well pump outside. They should have no vehicle and live on a diet of unprocessed grain, produce and maybe the occasional chicken or rabbit. (which would still be considered a luxurious life by many of the worlds inhabitants).
This would help them understand the difference between what they actually need and what they merely want or are just used to having. This understanding may prove to be quite useful in the coming years when it may be a matter of life or death to appreciate the differences.

[linlithgowoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')edieval peasants worked less because their extra work didn't do anything to improve their lot in life. They couldn't accumulate capital.

[Auntie_Cipation]

First of all -- getting a 100% mortgage during a housing bubble =

Borrowing 85k on a 90k home ought to be WAY more than enough. A downpayment should be big enough to at least give you a tiny piece of equity. And a sense that you worked hard to save the money needed to make that downpayment.

Sorry but I don't buy the "poor us, we're screwed by society" thing. The current generation is no more OBLIGATED to assume large debt than we "previous generations" were. The difference, I assert, is in attitude -- previous generations at least partly accepted the idea that if they couldn't afford something, they didn't get to have it, until they could afford it! What a concept! And yes, I'm talking about education as well as THINGS. My parents had enough money to support me through half of my college education -- once their money was gone, I WORKED my way through school. Going as fast or as slow as I could afford to. I graduated with a total of $4000 in student loan debt (and no other debt).

If we construct lifestyles that use 100%-plus of our income, then we don't accumulate savings (capital). If we live below our means, we do.

It's the sense of entitlement that's killing us.