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Medicare cuts and physician greed -- the real death panels

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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby rangerone314 » Thu 26 May 2011, 06:23:41

How do I prevent aggression against me from groundwater contamination by one of these companies in a true "free market system"?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby rangerone314 » Thu 26 May 2011, 06:26:47

I got an idea... tax wealth (all wealth, including investments), the way property taxes on your home gets taxed.

Maybe that will "change behavior" so the wealthy put less money in commodities and that will bring food & gas prices lower for those of us in the middle class. :)
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 26 May 2011, 06:33:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'H')ow do I prevent aggression against me from groundwater contamination by one of these companies in a true "free market system"?

And how is this tied to Medicare?

By the way, I'd be all for regulation if it tended to be EFFECTIVE. However, again and again and again, if you watch CSPAN and see the Senatorial reviews of crises, it seem that in each and every case the regualators are ineffective and/or incompetent, and/or corrupt and/or don't bother to actually DO any regulating (letting industry regulate itself, and charging taxpayers BILLIONS to apparently build spreadsheets on the reported results).

And I saw a recent post in another thread where some EPA clown claimed he had never seen ANY evidence of water contamination by Fracking. Hell, recently there was some big mess by Chesapeake, where they had spilled chemicals and screwed up the water as part of some Fracking operation -- it was national news. (Just another example of the results of regulation).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 07:09:44

You just refuse to put the things that will fix it on the table.

End all subsidies to oil, coal, ethanol, and big ag. End all subsidies to multinationals. You want assistance you operate solely in the US.

No more letting corporations have free access to oil in the gulf and natural resources on public lands. Those are our resources and the country gets it's cut.

Corporate minimum tax of 20%. No more corporations paying no taxes.

Bring the troops home. Cut the defense budget in half.

Raise taxes on those making more than 500,000 a year to 50%.

Single payer health care. Based on Canadian system. With everyone now being eligible, There would be an instant need for health care workers. Jobs for everyone!

Look at that, problem solved. Our coffers would be filled to the brim. We could even afford to fix our infrastructure.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 07:19:31

It was the Democrats the passed the New Deal and created Social Security. It was the Democrats that created Medicare and Medicaid and the Food Stamp program. It was the Democrats created Unemployment Insurance.

These programs ensure that the elderly and the disabled do not die miserably after they no longer are able to work.

These programs ensure that children have proper nutrition and medical care during their formative years so that they may grow up to be productive members of society.

These programs ensure that the cyclical periods of recession/depression that we KNOW occur and will occur again in the future do not leave the unemployed unable to survive until the next upturn in the economy.

This is what the Democrats are about. The welfare of the people of the United States, the common good.

These programs the Republicans have tried to destroy since they were created.

These programs, at this very moment, are being targeted by the Republicans.

The Republicans have been at war with the working class since the end of the 19th century, when workers first organized to fight for better working conditions.

The Republicans now attempt to strip away all of the gains made by the American people over the last century. The American people by and large ARE the working class.

There is a BIG difference between the two parties.

I can't wait till 2012.

"...where working class kicks corporate ass from sea to shining sea"
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Thu 26 May 2011, 07:25:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 26 May 2011, 07:23:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I') got an idea... tax wealth (all wealth, including investments), the way property taxes on your home gets taxed.

It's good, but since I don't really know the way your property taxes work I'll expand on it a bit.

Try a progressive wealth tax. You own $1 million of assets or less no tax to pay for you. Between say $1 million and $2 million of assets 0.5% tax. Between $2 and $3 million 1% and so on. The rates and boundaries can be shifted but the principle remains the same and can extend up as far as needed. Bingo, enough taxes to pay for all of the things a civilised society should have. Try to renounce your citizenship to avoid the tax and you voluntarily give up your rights to any land and property in your respective country.

With the huge surplus given to us by the cheap oil we are burning through so frivolously, there is no excuse not to provide free health care.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 07:43:37

I'm more than willing to keep you rightys arguing for the elimination of Medicare and Social Security right up to election day. :lol:

The only Republicans who will be left will be those who didn't have to face an election that year.

Then we WILL have a clear majority that you won't be able to block.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 26 May 2011, 09:50:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I') got an idea... tax wealth (all wealth, including investments), the way property taxes on your home gets taxed.

It's good, but since I don't really know the way your property taxes work I'll expand on it a bit.

Or the flip side of that is to only tax income. If you go broke, you pay no taxes, period.

The GOP theme of "people who pay no taxes" is to have the government going after people who have less and less. Being a sharecropper sounds a lot more "tyranny" than whatever the Tea Party is whining about this week, but the Tea Party fantasy always has them holding the whip so I guess it's OK.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Oakley » Thu 26 May 2011, 09:57:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'H')ow do I prevent aggression against me from groundwater contamination by one of these companies in a true "free market system"?


You join in a class action against them. Under the current government protection system, the polluter is protected because if he meets government standards for pollution, you effectively are not protected and have no recourse. Without the government protecting the polluter by setting accommodating "standards", he can be taken to task and stopped. Freedom does not give people license to violate your property rights, and destroying the water on your property is a violation of your property rights.

There are countless free market solutions that are much more effective than the usual government operations that are mostly incompetent and easily taken control of by special interests. Would you rather have your education from a private school or a government school? How about going to a VA hospital compared to a private hospital? You are protected better in a free market because of competition, the flow of information about who might be providing poor quality, and effective legal redress (unlike the current government court system). The problem is that most people have been indoctrinated into believing that government is the preferred solution to problems, which clearly it is not.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 26 May 2011, 09:58:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'H')ow do I prevent aggression against me from groundwater contamination by one of these companies in a true "free market system"?

And how is this tied to Medicare?
How is Grandma supposed to defend herself against predatory insurance companies who would enter the market under the Ryan plan.

It seems like the GOP is targeting the few remaining pockets of resources available to the middle class, so they are going after public schools and the elderly's homes and savings.

Under the Ryan plan, tens of millions of elderly people would be stripped of all their assets, which would be transferred directly to the insurance industry.

It would be an unimaginable transfer of wealth upwards, and we'd have millions of sick elderly people sleeping in the streets.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 26 May 2011, 11:54:58

The Republican Doctrine is an antique in my opinion. It is based on an America and world view that has resources available that in comparison to humanity are unlimited when compared to one's lifetime and the future of the next generation or two. So the technique becomes one of empowering the top movers and shakers to pursue the largest possible exploits and let the operation trickle down to the common folk.

As we have seen in this past decade, wherein a true Republican believer was President, when this antique doctrine is applied to the present conditions of America, it implements a dismantling of the middle class, and protects the wealthy and in fact subsidizes them to dismantle their own nation in pursuit of quick profits in whatever area of the world that cheap goods and labor may be had.

The Republican "Go West Young Man" mindset is a recipe for cannibalizing America, and they go on and on willy nilly thinking that if you act like it is 1890 or 1950, the world will conform somehow and everything will be how it used to be.

They really and truly believe this, and they really and truly would run us off this cliff to prove themselves right, and then make damn sure the "little people" have to jump first so the movers and shakers would have something soft to land on if push came to shove and they had to go over the
edge themselves.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 26 May 2011, 13:06:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow is Grandma supposed to defend herself against predatory insurance companies who would enter the market under the Ryan plan.


No reason to assert that Grandma would choose the $50,000 /yr plan, so no reason to go to ridiculous extremes to contend against a plan that has been already rejected.

That said, the Ryan notion of a voucher + income tiered additional assist takes the debate to a core problem.

When to say, "No thank you" to the seller of Health Services (doctor,clinic, whatever).

In a NHS a combination of prioritized scheduling and panels that weigh benefit against cost provide that "No thank you". This is good, in that they get to be the bad guys, while the patient near end of life, and the doctor who's supposedly compassionate get to be the good guys. Its bad in that the patient (perhaps desperately afraid of dieing for some reason) views himself as being victimized by the system/government. (gov't should fear the people, not the people fear the gov't.).

Ryan's plan basically transfers that "No thank you" responsibility to the family/patient; this is good and bad because it allows the patient to decide what level of life extension provides them the best value compared with what they can leave to kin. Some people don't care to leave anything, and so would be perfectly within their capabilities to spend it all on health care and life extension; others (myself included) would rather draw the line once passed commonly prescribed drugs and modest physical intervention (ie, no, you aren't going to do surgery on my brain at age 70.). Its bad, in that the "fear" some feel as end of life approaches, can cause them to make decisions that they would deeply regret; or the family can end up feeling they are being somehow cruel by not paying for life extension XYZ even in the face of known patient wishes. Not even going into how bad it could be making those decisions to balance assets vs lifespan in the absence of known wishes.

Its definitely a discussion worth having in a serious, non-bombastic form. Someone has to pick up the responsibility to say, "no, thats not worth it.".

How are you going to balance the books when it becomes trivially easy to apply $1mil of services to grandma to extend her life one year? Everyone that has tried to put a price on this decision has been slaughtered politically.

What will you do when its not $1mil... but $50 mil. ??

That is certainly where medicine is going. It is getting easier and easier to focus thousands of hours of concentrated labor into a few hours of direct treatment.
We need to be ready with the answer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nder the Ryan plan, tens of millions of elderly people would be stripped of all their assets, which would be transferred directly to the insurance industry.


Only if they chose ridiculous plans that provided the same benefits as they had at 35.
Unfortunately... families often do very illogical things to change grandma's end of life date from 2012 to 2013.

Its really a harder question than you are making it out to be.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:10:53

Hey clueless, many ppl end up with chronic diseases that don't kill em and treatment is expensive. Of course it won't happen to you bc yer reptile brain can't see beyond the end of yer nose. :lol:
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:28:58

Democrats Defeat Republican plan to kill Medicare in the Senate 40-57
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter the loss in NY 26th district to Democrat Kathy Hochul, Republicans were unable to maintain ideological purity among their ranks, with a handful of Republicans crossing over to vote against the bill.

All 40 votes for the bill were Republican.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:34:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')ey clueless, many ppl end up with chronic diseases that don't kill em and treatment is expensive. Of course it won't happen to you bc yer reptile brain can't see beyond the end of yer nose. :lol:


Hey clueless, I have several of those in-family, and know for a fact that there are expensive and inexpensive treatments available. The expensive treatment plans usually provide some moderate improvement in 5-yr survival; the question then becomes, just as I stated; What dollar figure is that improvement worth? Is it worth $10k, is it worth $10 mil ? I don't know. Any public figure that touches that question will get obliterated, and yet it is a question that desperately needs asking and answering.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:41:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'D')emocrats Defeat Republican plan to kill Medicare in the Senate 40-57;
All 40 votes for the bill were Republican.


Basically, those 40 voted that way because their constituents would lynch them specifically if they didn't. Not really surprising, especially since it was a known fact that the budgeted plan could not become law.

I'm not even really sad about the whole thing, we'll just print ourselves into oblivion; those with power who are not dependent upon the value of the dollar will become the new aristocracy; and the rest of us will wallow in our millions while trying to budget for an extra loaf of bread... A more perfect way to turn the bottom 80% of the American People into a new peasantry couldn't have been intentionally designed.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:48:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')asically, those 40 voted that way because their constituents would lynch them specifically if they didn't.


Oh, please. This is YOUR bill. Republicans are still trying. They haven't given up yet.

YOU are the perfect example of that.

The American people aren't going to buy, the "Well we never really wanted it" excuse.

Fool.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 26 May 2011, 14:53:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'I')t was the Democrats the passed the New Deal and created Social Security. It was the Democrats that created Medicare and Medicaid and the Food Stamp program. It was the Democrats created Unemployment Insurance. ..
This is what the Democrats are about. The welfare of the people of the United States, the common good. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '<')/div>


Cid, this is all well and good, and I applaud some of them, except when they lead to moral hazard, and when we can't pay for them. Seems to me like buying votes.
Social Security, ponzi scheme and broke.
Medicare, Medicaid, broke.
Unemployment, broke.
Budget from the 2010- 2011 Democratic controlled House and Senate, NEVER ever came out. If the Dems can't pay for all their promises it makes them biggest liars history has ever seen. THAT is evil. I'm sorry that simple math is beyond the scope of the Democratic Party.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 26 May 2011, 15:01:17

Social Security is not broke, it's Social Security's $2.6 trillion, that workers have paid in all their lives, that you are still trying to get your hands on.

This whole supposed financial crisis is a farce. There IS no financial crisis with Social Security or Medicare.

It's all made up by the Republicans in your never ending quest to destroy these programs.

And guess what? The people have woke up, and they won't be going back to sleep before the next election.

Your lies don't work anymore, eventually you will catch on to that, the people already have.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Thu 26 May 2011, 15:05:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Republican attempt to kill Medicare, costs them NY 26th

Unread postby Livewire713 » Thu 26 May 2011, 15:02:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'I')t was the Democrats the passed the New Deal and created Social Security. It was the Democrats that created Medicare and Medicaid and the Food Stamp program. It was the Democrats created Unemployment Insurance. ..
This is what the Democrats are about. The welfare of the people of the United States, the common good. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '<')/div>


Cid, this is all well and good, and I applaud some of them, except when they lead to moral hazard, and when we can't pay for them. Seems to me like buying votes.
Social Security, ponzi scheme and broke.
Medicare, Medicaid, broke.
Unemployment, broke.
Budget from the 2010- 2011 Democratic controlled House and Senate, NEVER ever came out. If the Dems can't pay for all their promises it makes them biggest liars history has ever seen. THAT is evil. I'm sorry that simple math is beyond the scope of the Democratic Party.


Cutting Medicare and Social Security would lead to more tax cuts for the rich and we would be in the same spot except we wouldnt have Medicare or Social Security.
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