[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')all I'm saying is don't take the darn flag away and dukes of hazard and the NOT RACIST culture things away, is it too much to ask?)

[Withnail]

Good thread actually.

Nobody can say it hasn't stimulated discussion.

[americandream]

As long as people act unconstitutionally by widespread flying mixed loyalties which offend you will cause pointless conflict in your country. The flag was defeated and cannot become a widespread icon without evoking a failure in national unity.. The odd display can be regarded as ornamental, but the South has been by stealth trying to regain government and I am hardly surprised you have this underway.

Quite unreasonable and sneaky behaviour on the part of a vanquished. At least the Iraqis are man enough to take a stand.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Withnail', 'G')ood thread actually.

Nobody can say it hasn't stimulated discussion.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'A')s long as people act unconstitutionally by widespread flying mixed loyalties which offend you will cause pointless conflict in your country. The flag was defeated and cannot become a widespread icon without evoking a failure in national unity.. The odd display can be regarded as ornamental, but the South has been by stealth trying to regain government and I am hardly surprised you have this underway.

Quite unreasonable and sneaky behaviour on the part of a vanquished. At least the Iraqis are man enough to take a stand.

[Sixstrings]

edit: rant deleted, I'll let you guys post, good discussion in this thread. @AD, short version: after this whole episode, my views on Putin and Russia have not changed -- but I can also see how the far left become like an intolerant AVALANCHE and it can get overboard and it's not helpful to anything. I think the West needs to defend its territory yes, but also be more understanding of Russians and where they are coming from, and be understanding and sensitive and reasonable, where we can be.

We don't actually want nuclear war, with Russia, over social media inflammatory arguing.

Now ignore I said all that, let's not derail off onto Russia.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'A')s long as people act unally by widespread flying mixed loyalties which offend you will cause pointless conflict in your country. The flag was defeated and cannot become a widespread icon without evoking a failure in national unity.. The odd display can be regarded as ornamental, but the South has been by stealth trying to regain government and I am hardly surprised you have this underway.

Quite unreasonable and sneaky behaviour on the part of a vanquished. At least the Iraqis are man enough to take a stand.

[americandream]

The notion that US law is somehow distinct from its English roots is quite bizarre.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Withnail', 'G')ood thread actually.

Nobody can say it hasn't stimulated discussion.

[americandream]

It will be toned down...the miscreants seeking to revive land owning feudalism Southern style havent a hope. However, manufacturers based in the US will be more inclined to move to more disciplined shores and this will hurt the worker where it matters.

What you do in the privacy of your home is a sovereign right. Indirectly intimidating people with icons from a troubled age is most unreasonable and engenders an unreasonable response.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')why on earth must the media and government start this horrible sh*t up now.

[Sixstrings]

Confederate flag burned in northern Ireland, along with IS flag and effigies of "Gerry Adams" and such:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://cdn3.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article31372008.ece/1a99a/ALTERNATES/w620/bonefires%2012.jpg[/img]





Adding fuel to Twelfth bonfires - IS flags and effigies of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and Bobby Sands placed on pyres

IS flag is set to be burned with republican effigies as thousands gather at bonfires

Thousands gathered at sites throughout the province to watch as the huge pyres blazed across Northern Ireland.

In the Ballycraigy housing estate in Antrim, a US Confederate flag emblazoned with “LVF” was on display.

Efforts also continued yesterday afternoon to protect homes in east Belfast from a bonfire that was built on the Comber Greenway cycle path within 30 feet of houses on Chobham Street.

The Housing Executive was forced to cover windows and doors of 52 houses with fire resistant plywood to prevent damage due the extreme heat of the blaze from the monster pyre.

The Northern Ireland Fire Service recommend that a bonfire should be built at a minimum distance equal to five times its height from the nearest house.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/adding-fuel-to-twelfth-bonfires-is-flags-and-effigies-of-gerry-adams-martin-mcguinness-and-bobby-sands-placed-on-pyres-31372038.html

[Sixstrings]

Woman in Vermont yells "f*ck you!" to a pickup truck that had a confederate flag on it:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')onah Goldberg: Confederate flag and hypocrisy

MONTPELIER, VT. – “Nice flag!” the woman shouted, sarcastically adding: “F---- you!” She was seated on the patio of a restaurant, overlooking Main Street in this famously liberal capital of this famously liberal state, as a pickup with the Confederate emblem drove by.

I could understand the sentiment, if not the language. When the woman saw my daughter and her friend, she apologized for her profanity. While I could have done without the f-bomb around two 12-year-old girls, my real objection was different.

The young woman’s outburst was exactly the reaction the buffoon in the truck was hoping for. After all, Vermont is the heart of union territory (and the first state to ban slavery in 1777). Even without the recent controversies, there’s no reason to fly a Confederate flag in downtown Montpelier except to offend.

Ransacking history

I’m no big fan of the Confederate battle flag, but do serious people believe that if Roof didn’t have access to the banner, the accused 21-year-old killer would have pursued a life of peace?

It’s this lack of nuance and distinction I find so troubling — and hypocritical.

Claude Berube, director of the Naval Academy Museum, recently compared the rush to dig up Confederate graves and tear down statues to Islamic iconoclasm. The Taliban blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas on the grounds that they violate Islamic law. The terrorist group Islamic State is ransacking historic monuments for both God and mammon.

The comparison has its obvious limits, but it does highlight a remarkable double standard. Islamic terror has been on the rise for decades, yet over that time the left’s calls for nuance, tolerance and understanding have only grown louder. Virtually no one condones or makes apologies for ISIL barbarity (one can’t say the same about Hamas or Hezbollah), but there has been a Herculean effort to put Islamic extremism in “context.”

President Obama insists that ISIL isn’t even Islamic and that the West should not get on its “high horse” about today’s Muslim atrocities given that Christians committed atrocities eight centuries ago. When Islamist radicals were thwarted in their effort to behead Pamela Geller for organizing a “draw Mohammed” contest, many in the news media were quick to argue that she was asking for it. When an obscure pastor wanted to burn the Quran, the U.S. government went into a panicked tailspin, begging him not to offend or radicalize peaceful Muslims. When jihadists attacked a U.S. compound in Benghazi, Libya, then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s greatest rhetorical fury was aimed at an obscure filmmaker who made an offensive video about Islam.
http://www.pal-item.com/story/opinion/columnists/2015/07/14/jonah-goldberg-confederate-flag-hypocrisy/30131235/

[Sixstrings]

New Orleans:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Opposition to removal of Confederate memorials at Lee Circle and elsewhere gains steam

Opponents of the proposed removal of Confederate memorials in New Orleans are using social media to organize the fight to keep them where they stand.

What started out as an effort to keep the statue of Robert E. Lee atop his column in Lee Circle, has expanded its mission to include defending all of the statues and monuments dedicated to the Confederacy.

The City Council, at Mayor Mitch Landrieu's request, has begun a formal hearing process that could result in the removal of Lee and monuments dedicated to P.G.T. Beauregard, another Confederate general; Jefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy; and the Battle of Liberty Place, a bloody confrontation instigated by ex-Confederates who launched a failed coup against Louisiana's Reconstruction government.

Led by Tim Shea Carroll, the "Save our Circle" movement has collected nearly 15,000 signatures on a change.org petition opposing the removals and united 3,465 users in a Facebook group dedicated to the same cause.

Both have seen rapid growth recently, with hundreds joining and signing each day.

The group has also started a fundraising campaign to raise money to buy T-shirts and materials to build protest signs to show a united front at rallies and public hearings. It's nearly reached it's goal of $1,000.

Attempts to reach Carroll were not immediately successful, but he told WGNO-TV that he is pro-statue, not pro-slavery.

The city's streetscape is replete with monuments and road names dedicated to Confederate heroes. Supporters of Landrieu's proposal have called for all such monuments to be removed and such streets to be renamed. Some have gone as far as calling for the statue of Andrew Jackson, who owned slaves and oversaw the genocide of Indians in the Southeast, to be removed.

Carroll said he feared Landrieu, in an effort to curry political plaudits, was opening a door he wouldn't be able to shut. "This is a very slippery slope. It's a dangerous precedent. Where is it gonna end?" he asked.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/07/lee_circle_confederate_monumen_1.html#comments

[Sixstrings]

Article points out that this would just never end, for example, italian americans put up monuments to christopher columbus. Yet native americans are opposed to those. And, by the way, a lot of native americans wouldn't want any wild west frontier history either, or in Florida they wouldn't want any spanish conquistadors history.

Put up MORE monuments and museums, don't tear down what is already there, ADD TO IT.

And it's nuts to be having iconology culture wars, where there is no actual concrete real civil rights issue at hand other than the civil right of the person whose flag you're grabbing away.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]What should we do about our own Confederate symbols in Tampa Bay?

In St. Petersburg, there's Dixie Hollins High School, a flash point for desegregation during the 1970s and still home of the Rebels.

On Tampa's Columbus Drive, there's Robert E. Lee Elementary School, a technology magnet whose mascot is Traveller, the confederate General's horse.

...

"There's hardly anything you can look at that wasn't involved in some conflict," Kite-Powell said. "Look at the $20 with Andrew Jackson, a president who was incredibly popular, but who would now be locked up in jail. His policies pushed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people off their land."

The Columbus statue (on Bayshore Boulevard) is another good example, he said.

"For every member of the Italian club who would look at the Columbus statue and see it as something to be revered, you can find somebody of native birth who despises it."

• • •

Since Charleston, men, women and children have gathered in parking lots and cheered on grassy lawns for the Confederate battle flag. They chant the mantra — "Heritage, not hate" — and insist the flag does not equal racism.

Phil Walters, of the Judah P. Benjamin Camp of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, is among them. He characterized the anti-confederate movement as "intellectually dishonest," and believes the south has come under fire for a mindset the entire nation shared at one point.

"If you just across the board rip something away from people, is that not going to breed resentment?" Walters asked. "You can pass the laws and bully it through, but does it really solve anything?"
http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/what-should-we-do-about-our-own-confederate-symbols/2237272

[Lore]

It's not Planty, Cog! It's Plant, if you're a good friend, for short or Mr. Plantagenet.

There ya go Plant, thought I'd help you out.

[Cog]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[Sixstrings]

Political comment, by the way --

This flag and monuments overreach, by the extreme far left, has probably spooked a lot of swing vote and independent vote. This may have cost Democrats Florida, in the long run.

The Republican nominee can win the general (last I checked the math) if he wins Florida and then Ohio -- if it's Bush v. Clinton, then Ohio would be THE big battleground.

This flag stuff may well have cost Democrats' Ohio, too. They've got a lot of country red state type folks up there. They're not racists, but they don't like extreme far left either, and too much political correctness.

Democrats -- y'all need to understand, when you push people TOO HARD, you lose them.

This flag stuff is not even about a civil rights issue. If it were about voting laws in some of the red states then I'd be all for that, that's a real issue I can morally get behind, but NOT this flag hysteria and what looks like anarchy to me.

I don't know, I voted President Obama two times, and before Sanders came along I was thinking before that we did need a switch back to Republicans. I'm all for a lot of things on the left side, but this too much political correctness stuff and Leninland tearing down monuments and grabbing flags out of yards -- I don't like that, I don't like it any more than Cog or Plant or conservatives like it.

edit: I forgot how big of a deal this confederate flag culture war stuff was, I just really thought all this was behind everyone and everything was okay, we all voted Obama and elected Obama so okay that's all over with.

But here's an old video, this was a big issue before:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ush not offended by Confederate Flag (2000 Debate)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtW1VXv_1o

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I')t's not Planty, Cog! It's Plant, if you're a good friend, for short or Mr. Plantagenet.

There ya go Plant, thought I'd help you out.