[PenultimateManStanding]

The Western World with that great Anglo-Saxon document The Magna Carta created the hope, based evidently on Christian Theology, that every person has Individual Rights and that, in time, a just society where everyone lived in prosperous harmony would come about and cruel despotic relations would be forgotten. A Beautiful Dream, but nothing more, it seems, believed only by a dwindling number of Socialist Believers. Now is a very good time to get thoughtful and philosophical about History. Individualism has been a disaster, or will soon show itself to be one. Sure, Individual Freedom is great, I sure like it, but its days are numbered. Everybody Wants To Rule The World, as the old song goes. That may be a bit of a stretch, but in essence it's dead-on. Masses of Individuals is unsustainable. People are going to have to be curtailed, confined, restricted, dealt with vigorously. The idea that Collective Wisdom emerges from The People will be tossed into the Trashcan Of History. The "Collective Wisdom Of The People" produced what may soon be revealed as the Greatest Misallocation Of Resources The World Has Ever Known. Clearly it is time for... ...what?

[jaws]

I'm sad to break this to you but if you want to get rid of individualism you'll have to get rid of all humans. There's no non-individualist god that will intervene to stop individualism.

As the saying goes we are all individuals. We have to deal with that.

[Novus]

The last time Democracy was rejected en mass was when the Roman Republic gave way to the Roman Empire. A politcal writer living in the time of the empire wrote that representation had to be appropriate to the size of the people it governed. The more people that were put under rule the less freedom to be given to the individual. He gave four size comparisons.

City-State: Such as the Greeks had in 450BC (Direct democacy possible) high individual freedom
Representative Republic: Rome in 150BC (Power is in elected Senate) limited group freedom
Despotic Regime: Rome in 30BC (Power under one Caesar) few freedoms of any kind
Emperial Burocracy: Rome in 200AD (Power under multiple absolute rulers) No freedom for anyone.

Overall I think he was right. Huge democracies with 50 million or more people where everyone of them thinks they can just do their own thing won't work. It didn't work 2000 years ago and it won't work 2000 years in the future.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I')'m sad to break this to you but if you want to get rid of individualism you'll have to get rid of all humans. There's no non-individualist god that will intervene to stop individualism.

As the saying goes we are all individuals. We have to deal with that.

[Z]

IMHO, the problem is not individualism but rather the lack of sense of community. As always there must be a balance beetween two extremes. Individual have at the same time a sense of self and a sense of belonging to a community.

First, modern economics tend to simplify the community to a sum of monetary exchanges. Second, technology simplify our lives and give us great power. This power is used to separate us. For example, rather than going to a pub seeking a good conversation with unknown people, you would rather stay behind the idiot box. Internet chat allows you too choose wich person you want to relate to and avoid those you don't want.

For all that matters, other human beings are treated just like objects, discardable almost at will. Previous generations, say at the beginning of the industrial era or before that, had to stick with other people, even if it were people they didn't like that much. It was a matter of survival.

I think disintegration of society is a very unhealthy developement, and you could link this state of affair with the growing epidemics of depression and other psychic disorders in developped countries.

[bobcousins]

The thing that really strikes me about the human race is the extraordinary degree to which they cooperate. I cannot think of many species that cooperate to such an extent, except those colonies that are genetically identical, like ants or bees.

For example I live in a city of some 8 million people, all in a few square miles. I have people close to the left, right, back, front, and below! Any other species would have been fighting for territory way before the density got so high.

International trade is a form of cooperation. I buy things designed by people in the US, made in China, then shipped here. I talk to people all over the world on the internet. None of these people I have met. In a sense, money and the whole financial system are abstract tools designed to enable people to cooperate remotely.

So when many say that personal greed, individualism etc are "the problem", that just doesn't make any sense to me. The problem appears to be caused by the extent to which we cooperate.

Perhaps there is an American bias here, the American Dream promotes the idea of the individual (the Dream is really a fantasy), but the sense of community is generally much stronger in Europe.

People basically operate with two principles, greed and cooperation. These are not necessarily mutual exclusive. If both parties gain from transaction then cooperation provides a win-win situation. Greed will often come to the fore, and individuals cheat on transactions. But cheating deters cooperation, so cheaters risk being excluding from further cooperation. So a balance is achieveed, where cooperation mostly takes place.

Cooperation is generally greater where indiviudals are more closely related, but of course all humans are more closely related to each other than another species. So one person's seemingly completely selfless act is in fact helping human DNA, which they share. The vast majority of human tranactions though only take place where both parties benefit.

I see social artefacts like the Magna Carta, not as being an affirmation of individual rights over the collective, but in fact devices to set fair ground rules, which enable greater cooperation. People will not cooperate if the rules are unfair.

Americans talk about individualism, but they are also strong on democracy. Democracy is of course a way of establishing a sense of fair play, it is needed to counter greed, and provide a framework for cooperation.

[Doly]

I agree that I don't think individualism is The Problem. If you look at countries where the communal good is more emphasized than in America, like Japan, you don't get the impression that they are doing that much better. Similarly, Spain, where individualism is rampant (the famous Spanish pride is just plain refusing to cooperate in a lot of cases), doesn't seem to be doing that badly.

I see short-termism as a much more likely culprit for our current problems. Things that look like the common good in the short term may be disastrous in the long term. If the average seventies person had been astoundingly greedy, astoundinly individualistic, but looking at the long term all the time, we'd probably have a decentralized energy system using alternative energies by now.

[Specop_007]

I agree, damn this individualism.

We need a collective Communist society.

PMS, your house just became my new vacation spot. Clear a room out, I'll be there for 2 weeks this winter.

After all, you wouldnt want to look like a selfish individualist now would you?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I') agree, damn this individualism.

We need a collective Communist society.

PMS, your house just became my new vacation spot. Clear a room out, I'll be there for 2 weeks this winter.

After all, you wouldnt want to look like a selfish individualist now would you?

[oowolf]

We evolved as social primates programmed to function in cooperative tribes of no more than 30 "individuals". Wealth was impossible to accumulate and the consequences of behavior were readilly apparent. "Civilization" quickly leads to environmental overshoot and a collective disconnect from reality with devastating results.

The mass of those caught up in the petroindustrial psychosis are docile, unthinking, consumeroid zombies that have NO OTHER reason for existing than the complete destruction of the planet. Our legacy will be a ravaged paradise polluted with mountainous piles of worthless CRAP.

Cars are evil. Planes are evil. TV is evil. Money is evil. Corn is evil. Oil is evil. Humans are evil. Death to humans. I only hope I live long enough to see the scourge of humanity eradicated, then I can die happy.

What inspired this rant was a General Motors magazine ad touting motor fuel made from moonshine==What utter, raving psychosis this whole experiment in stupidity has come to....

[Ludi]

PMS, I could hardly disagree with you more strongly.




"Confining" people will not solve any problems. When has it ever. When has authoritarianism ever led to a happier more fulfilling society.

I don't think ever.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')When has authoritarianism ever led to a happier more fulfilling society.

[Ludi]

I guess I didn't understand your post, PMS. I thought you were advocating such action.

[oowolf]

A society that encourages "individuals" to squander energy and precious resources (including lifeforms) has no future. A society that considers cows, hogs, and chickens "production units" has no future. A society that destroys its topsoil to manufacture soda pop and motor fuel has no future.
A society run by amoral corporations...

Last night an 18 year old just about to "graduate" from 12 years of public "education" told me flat out there's no such thing as global warming, bird flu is a scam-nothing to be concerned about, and if we'd just stop buying gasoline for 3 days the oil companies would have to lower prices.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') guess I didn't understand your post, PMS. I thought you were advocating such action.