[seahorse3]

Obi, I agree the problems are very complex. One of our founding fathers, Thomas Pain, wrote little known essay about how he noticed that "poverty" was a product of civilization. He noted that in the Native American tribes, the poverty and disparity we see in "civilization" didn't exists, and reading further on that, I have learned that Indian tribes status was determined by who could give the most away. But at any rate, Pain wrote that since man is born displaced from the land, meaning not enough land to provide for himself to live anymore like a free man, then civilization had a duty to him.

What I think Paine noticed and what we see today are problems of "technology", frankly, we can do more with less. Technology displaces workers who are no longer even "capital" as referred to by Marx. What are people to do? I wish I could find the link, but just this year there was a great article saying the fundamental problems facing economic growth, the development of a "service economy" etc were products of an increasing more complex society built on technology which frankly didn't need people to do much but buy, but if we literally don't need workers, how to support them? How do they earn money etc? Very fundamental and tough questions. I don't have the answers but to say the problems are more than the problems of anyone individual, thus I cannot lay all blame on the individual though I never remove that from the equation either. In our discussion, I took simply the bigger view of the problem, but do recognize the need for personal responsibility but as you say, how to instill it, how to teach it, and certainly someone has to intervene in the cycle of poverty and do something.

I wrote and posted an essay just today on "the business of mankind" which relates to this issue of poverty. If PO is real, if expensive oil is here today, it means some level of demand destruction which can be fatal to our "service economy" which is consumer driven. This means more recession, more economic pain, more poor. So, we have to address the fundamental problems of poverty or we will all reap the repercussions of an untreated illness that eventually, like in many third world countries, leads to entrenched crime and corruption.

[Cloud9]

Robot Nation was an essay that touched on this subject.

[Revi]

Can you post a link to your essay Seahorse? It sounds interesting.

[Dismayed]

Expensive oil will be a positive! We'll use fuel more efficiently. People will move closer to work so far-flung suburbs will go back to nature. And there will still be transportation options - but they will more likely be public instead of private. People adapt. Cheer up!

[seahorse3]

Dismayed, I'm actually far more optimistic about life than people may imagine. I have done many things which require absolute optimism to finish, having run marathons, an Iron Man, numerous triathlons, Army Ranger School, so what I intend to do with my writings is dispell the many fallacies we here in the MSM, bc people have to know the truth, otherwise they can't be prepared and will not make necessary changes in the personal lives and demand those same changes from their politicians. I personally expect nothing from the future but that I have been promised death and taxes. Other than those guarantees, I don't want to be lied to.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse3', 'P')retorian, I talk and counsel with poor people everyday. If you believe the poor have the extra $100+ for a passport, airfare or even the gas for a trip out of state you live in ignorance. Those statistics being rattled off about the number of poor Americans drasticsllynrisingnin the US and the number of people on food stamps are real people, not just numbers. I was talked to a a single woman who cried bc her $100 child support check was deposited by the child support office a day late due to some technical error. She time her $10 gas purchase to believing it was being deposited as usual. This caused her acct to go into overdraft, a $35 overdraft fee she could not afford. She also had to pay a $35 ISF to the gas station that she couldn't afford. So this $100 she budgeted for her nessecities for gas and food just wasn't there. There are countless people who cannot afford to simply fill up their tank and go and couldn't possibly afford airfare to go where? Do what? And get a place to live with what money?

[vision-master]

I'm thinking Dismayed is wishing a bit much.

[seahorse3]

Pretorian, if you think poor people don't own cars, you've never been to Arkansas. Go get the facts for yourself and see if what I say is true - the poor drive cars. Go to your local prosecutor's office and FOI how many tickets were issued over the last year for no tags, driving without a driver's license, driving on a suspended license, driving without proof of insurance, driving without registration, these are the poor out there driving vehicles, many times not their own. Go FOI your police and see how many cars the impounded over the last year and why.You see, my brother was a part time prosecutor here in a little town where we live and I would assist him. I routinely saw the same poor people in there racking up criminal fines that could never possibly be repaid all for the same stuff, all of the above, and why did they keep driving? Bc they had too, there is no public transit here. So, dip into reality.

[seahorse3]

Pretorian, I thought the ignorance of Scrooge was just a fictional character, when the ghost of the XMas future showed him the children of want and ignorance, those are your children too. Just like Scrooge, you ask "don't we have work houses"? Food stamps? Social Programs? You have given me a dose of reality of just how ignorant people can be. Come jump in the trenches of bankruptcy court with me, of prosecuting the poor, its a bloody fight and like all wars, not as fun to fight as it is to watch on tv.

[ObiWan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse3', ' ')Come jump in the trenches of bankruptcy court with me, of prosecuting the poor, its a bloody fight and like all wars, not as fun to fight as it is to watch on tv.

[vision-master]

You have never been poor.

You know no one who has been poor or are poor.

You know nothing about being poor.

[seahorse3]

I don't prosecute the poor anymore, and when I was over there, would routinely waive fines much to the dislike of the judge and particularly the city which derived its revenues from those prosecutions.

$100 a week may go a long ways in Ethiopia, I'm not sure. I'm sure a 50lb bag of rice would go much farther. But, $100 a week doesn't go far in the US.

[ObiWan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'Y')ou have never been poor.

[ObiWan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse3', 'I') don't prosecute the poor anymore, and when I was over there, would routinely waive fines much to the dislike of the judge and particularly the city which derived its revenues from those prosecutions.

$100 a week may go a long ways in Ethiopia, I'm not sure. I'm sure a 50lb bag of rice would go much farther. But, $100 a week doesn't go far in the US.

[vision-master]

Shorty, no?

[ObiWan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ObiWan', ' ')There is poor, then there is poor. Which are you referring to, and how do you measure it?

[ObiWan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'S')horty, no?