[smileyhouston]

One issue is the demand is increasing, so pipeline from Canada is running in issues to build pipelines across farmers land.

Another is with NG, industries are starting to look into these outlets which fall on peoples 'private' property.

What arguments are there from both sides, and valid point on owners being compensated.

What about mineral rights vs. water rights? I've heard this come up a couple of times also.

[smallpoxgirl]

Property rights are a joke. Politicians can and will steal anything you own. They may or may not decide to give it to their criminal accomplices in industry and there is not a blessed thing you can do about it. They have a variety of terms for it: taxation, forfeiture, eminent domain, it's all just a bunch of fancy lawyer double talk for thieving.

[smileyhouston]

so what solutions do you suggest?

[BigTex]

Smiley, you are raising two issues so far.

The first issue, eminent domain, is a local political issue. Whoever controls the local political apparatus will be the one who is able to use the eminent domain device to their benefit. This is one more reason to remain active in local politics and one more thing to be mindful of when purchasing property.

Is it "right" for the state to take private property for a public good? Sometimes it is. Private property rights that are never subordinate to public needs lead to absurd results. It's just a matter of balance, common sense, and trying to minimize the influence of private interests billing themselves as a public good. For example, access to clean drinking water is not the same as access to cheap crap at a Walmart.

The second issue is easements, rights of way, and similar partial "takings" necessary to facilitate public goods that require the partial use of private property.

These topics cannot be treated in any detail in this kind of setting, but for each there are well-developed bodies of law that usually provide good outcomes. The right way to think about them, IMO, is to understand that there must be a BALANCE between public and private interests. Either extreme leads to bad results.

For example, what value is there in private property rights if there is no state apparatus to protect those rights? But a state apparatus to protect property rights requires a funding method in the form of taxes that dilutes the property owner's "bundle" of rights.

There could never be absolute private ownership of property. Sooner or later Mother Nature always shows up and evicts the arrogant squatters.

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'P')roperty rights are a joke. Politicians can and will steal anything you own. They may or may not decide to give it to their criminal accomplices in industry and there is not a blessed thing you can do about it. They have a variety of terms for it: taxation, forfeiture, eminent domain, it's all just a bunch of fancy lawyer double talk for thieving.

[steam_cannon]

This is a pretty good topic. For example subsurface rights are a big
issue in Pennsylvania where sometimes people have to do a lot of
research before buying a property. The property under the land might
be owned by a coal company or was owned. They mine out the
coal and your house shifts a foot down on one side or old mines
collapse and you're living in a hole...



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://i31.tinypic.com/wu2pl.jpg[/img]

Pumping oil from the Wilmington oil field at Los Angeles harbor has
caused subsidence of the surface and caused these buildings to
sink below sea level.
http://tinyurl.com/2arfnq

[pup55]

1. Get on the county commission. Better to be making the rules. Some places, this may not be too difficult.

2. Go someplace so marginally liveable that the government or corporations will not mess with you. Example: The vast expanse between Minot and Glacier Park.

3. Get mobile. In a way, this attachment to some land restricts your mobility. Hit the road and do not look back.

4. Arm and/or organize. In the US, this has been attempted several times thoughout history: In 1775 the colonists tried it, and it was successful, up until now. In 1790, the Whiskey Rebellion was organized, and it was a dismal failure, quashed ironically by the same people that did the revolution in 1775, but by then were in power. In 1835, Sam Houston tried it, and it was marginally successful, except they then decided to merge with the USA so as to take advantage of the "benefits" of being within the system, such as military protection against Mexico. In 1860, the confederates tried it, and it was a long, bloody, dismal failure. In the late 1800's a lot of utopian societies were established, so that like minded people could band together in an intentional community to live in a way that was aligned with their various beliefs and lifestyles. Examples: the Oneida Community, The Amana Colonies, and the City of Zion in northwest Missouri. A lot of these did fine for a long time. The latter one was able to form its own little country briefly, until the benefits of being within the US slightly exceeded the drawbacks.

The recent examples of this have mainly ended tragically. Examples: Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Freedmen. Reason: They did not gain enough critical mass politically, and the continent is now more crowded than before, making it more difficult to get this to happen. There are a few exceptions to this, however.

Link

Link2

The reason that both of these cases worked is that the founders had enough sense to contribute beneficially to the local community, thus avoiding ticking anyone off, had enough resources to make it stick, and attracted enough voters to become politically important in the respective local areas.

Drawback: You are replacing one set of tyrants with another.

The moral of the story: One jerk with a shotgun trying to defend his front porch is going to fail. Many jerks, who can get a couple of seats on the county commission are going to succeed, if not too wacky and the place is conducive to it.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 's')o what solutions do you suggest?

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 'S')peaking of food prices, I'm sure that most of you are aware of
ethanol being responsible for that. As the stock feed price goes up
for corn, so does dairy, beef and products within that domain.

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') would suggest we stop acquiescing to being ruled by the criminal
elite. Seems few people are interested in doing that, so bitching
about it on a computer discussion group is the best solution I've come
up with.

[smileyhouston]

Do you think that the government can meet our demand for oil?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 'D')o you think that the government can meet our demand for oil?

[smileyhouston]

alright, what about depleted reserves that independents should be allowed to drill but for one reason or another they can't, and what about more deep offshore drilling?

Adding alternative fuels... wind, solar and coal emissions....

Thats why I asked eminent domain vs. surface rights? What steps or compromises should we make to meet our demand?

I see answers, but not solutions.... nor action.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 'a')lright, what about depleted reserves that independents should be allowed to drill but for one reason or another they can't, and what about more deep offshore drilling?

Adding alternative fuels... wind, solar and coal emissions....

Thats why I asked eminent domain vs. surface rights? What steps or compromises should we make to meet our demand?

I see answers, but not solutions.... nor action.

[smileyhouston]

Matt Simmons writes for our publication. And with us at peak oil, this raises several issues.

1. What can we do to reduce demand?

2. what can be done to meet demand?

3. What energy resources can we implement to compensate?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 'M')att Simmons writes for our publication. And with us at peak oil, this raises several issues.

1. What can we do to reduce demand?

[HEADER_RACK]

Smilely I suggest reading the Hirsch report.
Check out Jevons paradox as well.
We have put ourselves in one hell of a fix and we are about to find out how unsustainable it truly is.

[smileyhouston]

big tex... you just


So back to the subject, eminent domain vs. surface rights... who plays the devil advocate in this one?

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smileyhouston', 'S')o back to the subject, eminent domain vs. surface rights...
who plays the devil advocate in this one?

[BigTex]

Which part of NON-NEGOTIABLE did you not understand?