[Ludi]

Alex, you aren't speaking literally, but metaphorically, is that right? Those who are ill, injured, or victims of disaster won't actually be physically healed or saved, but instead spiritually saved.

Are you saying this is sufficient, that we need do nothing but be spiritually saved by Jesus? In other words, outwardly do nothing?

[POAlex]

Ludi, we're saved by grace through faith in Christ alone but don't forget about the fruit which comes as a result of salvation.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)

God saves people for eternity but He keeps them here to carry out His will and be a blessing to others.

Alex

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('POAlex', '
')
God saves people for eternity but He keeps them here to carry out His will and be a blessing to others.

[MadScientist]

Cloud's post was against the fanaticism of RELIGEON and POLITICS, and primarily about politics.

I hope you can recognize the difference between God and religeon in this day and age.

Organized religeon is a tool to control the masses.

God is the creator. If you truly want to follow him, you're gonna hafta seperate yourself from the wickedness of our world by a large degree.

faith + love = success

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MadScientist', 'C')loud's post was against the fanaticism of RELIGEON and POLITICS, and primarily about politics.

I hope you can recognize the difference between God and religeon in this day and age.

Organized religeon is a tool to control the masses.

God is the creator. If you truly want to follow him, you're gonna hafta seperate yourself from the wickedness of our world by a large degree.

faith + love = success

[patience]

Cur,

I'm late to the party here. Generally, I agree with your posts, without carefully analyzing the whole thread. As to "was it worth it", I'd have to say no, not to me. A loss is a loss, which is usually what happens in disasters. I have come to believe that, yes, adversity usually makes for a tougher individual, but I won't seek out adversity. And I have seen enough in others and in my personal experiences to conclude that all the praising of strength through adversity and suchlike, are just pysch games we play, coping mechanisms really, I suppose, to deal with the pain and loss and stresses, mental and physical, of adverse situations. Probably relates somehow to the stages of grief thing, since I have clearly seen grief acted out among all who had bad experiences.

So, how bad are we fooling ourselves in order to cope? The mental machinations are probably preferrable to just taking the psychological hit on the chin directly, with no mental anathesia.

Actually, I never liked any part of adversity, not then, not now. I may be tougher because of it, but it still sucks. Period.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', ' ')I won't seek out adversity.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', '
')
So, how bad are we fooling ourselves in order to cope? The mental machinations are probably preferrable to just taking the psychological hit on the chin directly, with no mental anathesia.

Actually, I never liked any part of adversity, not then, not now. I may be tougher because of it, but it still sucks. Period.

[patience]

Cur,

To add just a bit (it was late and getting pretty tired out there last night), I would say the most crucial thing is our personal reaction to disaster/tragedy. I believe that after the dust settles from a bad event, what we carry forward is, or can be, a personal decision as to how we will react.

Anyone can allow the primitive, emotional, lizard-like part of our brain to deal with big problems. We all have seen people do that, and it is not nice. We can, however, take hold of those reactions, and CHOOSE to react however we think best, that is, to force the lizard to listen to our better judgement, and react in a constructive way. NOT doing that is also a choice, that is, we choose to let emotion have total control. People make that choice without knowing it, but it is still a choice.

If we are going to toughen ourselves, or our offspring with experiences, then we must teach them that they have control of their own reactions, and the benefits of choosing correctly.

[wisconsin_cur]

Hardly a week goes by that I do not tell someone, "You cannot control what happens to you. You can only control how you respond to it."

But that is the nature of life in the real world.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'F')anatics suck the air out of a room. Whether their motivation is religious or political, they all to a man demand that we suspend rational thinking and accept their paradigm on faith. Faith begins where reason ends. Faith by its very nature is irrational. Fanatics are nothing without their followers. I can’t stand to be around them. Left alone, they are nothing more than raged men ranting on a street corner.

The progressives of the 19th century advanced an agenda that flowered in the 20th century based on the premise that all problems are political. It was asserted that disparities in wealth and education could be eradicated by political action. The notion of the nanny state was advanced. The idea took hold to greater or lesser extents all over the world. It manifested itself of communism and fascism. Taken to the extreme both systems failed.

Katrina and now Gustav may serve to reinforce the lesson that some things are beyond the scope of government. Under certain conditions, subsidies, entitlement programs and five year plans fall apart. The lesson learned by the observant is that these conditions happen all too often. The ultimate responsibility for the survival of the species rests on the individual. The prudent prepare. The rest perish.

[Roy]

[wisconsin_cur]

This is an important addition. Yes we can learn from disasters that other people experience. It can disabuse us of "rose colored glasses" if, of course, we are paying attention and do not believe that we are too special to have such events happen to us.

The same is true with history, if we bother to read it and treat what we read as real events that happened to real people... even if we do not have any video of the events.