[aldente]

One of the most fascinating aspects of PO is that it seems to either repel or to attract individuals. It is easy to understand the underlaying concept, due to the fact however that a conclusionary link to ones individual or even collective (sudden) mortality is established, one can argue that avoidance to deal with the subject alltogether is probably the main factor of denial.

Or it is simply an octave to high for the ordinary individual to think in dimentions such as collective annihilation. Even those who claim to have spent thoughts on such topics are usually hiding under the protective cover of organized religions. They can easily be recognized since 'they always have the answer' and appear confident, as much as they might be depressed individuals in the first place.

What is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?

Matt Savinar feels that depression results from undertanding PO, quote from his site:
If your subconscious perceives you are moving in an upwards direction, it will release the happy hormones like dopamine to keep you moving in that direction. If it perceives you are at a standstill, it will cause you to feel depressed. This has the effect of temporarily shutting you down which prevents you from wasting any more energy/time on endeavors unlikely to improving your chances of survival.

So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?

A third variation could be that for others the understanding of PO in its fascinating inevitabiliy has an adverse effect, meaning it actually acts as an energizing force. All one needs is the willingness to face death. This in itself is not related to depression at all, but a fact of life that we all need to deal with anyway.

[Hagakure_Leofman]

And then there is Freud's theory of depression as repressed anger.

...anger is a more useful emotion than despair.

[Lumpy]

I think that the answer is "any of the above", depending on your starting point.

For example, someone who is already of a depressed/morose nature (I am not talking about true clinical depression) may well gravitate toward things which support his/her world view. (We ALL tend to gravitate toward things which support our world views.)

Someone who is not of a morose bent, but sees the train coming down the track, and can see no possible means of getting out of the path (i.e. has no way to make preps), is bound to get pretty depressed, scared, etc.

Then there is door number 3 ... people (like my husband and me) who (1) "get it" about peak oil; (2) started preps (moved from the city 3 yrs ago, bought a farm, started building it up); (3) invited family to join in; (4) had family arrive; (5) now realize that family is not "getting"it -- or, actually doesn't WANT to get it. This is depression of the sad variety, more than the scared kind -- although were are afraid for their futures.

However, the fact of the matter is, we cannot allow them to destroy what we have built up so far, with their insistence on clinging stubbornly and even with hostility to the old world view.

There is a song by "Queen", in which Freddy Mercury sings "I want it all, I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now!" That's where these family members are.

We are going to the thread, "The Best of MonteQuest", and printing out a bunch of stuff to share with them at our family meeting today. In addition, we are showing them that Hirsch video clip that was posted here. This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.

Now THAT is depressing, considering the adult males (2 brothers) are the problems, but they will take with them the innocent wife (who IS willing to do what it takes) and two little sons (ages 2 and 4) of the eldest of the brothers. What will happen to them?

Lumpy

PS - Not meaning to hijack this thread. Just talking about depression in general got me talking about depression in specific.

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hagakure_Leofman', 'A')nd then there is Freud's theory of depression as repressed anger.

...anger is a more useful emotion than despair.

[aldente]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', ' ')This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', ' ')This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.

[aldente]

Well, this would confirm my point in so far as one always has to deal with day to day 'financial' matters'. You just happen to have invited some lazy bones on to your farm. My advice: kick em out and live your new live 'as normal as the circumstances allow', no matter what the developments.

There is in a sense an even irresponsible element in PO awareness, referring to the media in general, which by no means could translate the message, since all it would generate would be unrest.

In that sense one can argue that the media might be partially aware of the matter but for good reasons holds off to spread the 'bad news'...

[allenwrench]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', 'O')ne of the most fascinating aspects of PO is that it seems to either repel or to attract individuals. It is easy to understand the underlaying concept, due to the fact however that a conclusionary link to ones individual or even collective (sudden) mortality is established, one can argue that avoidance to deal with the subject alltogether is probably the main factor of denial.

Or it is simply an octave to high for the ordinary individual to think in dimentions such as collective annihilation. Even those who claim to have spent thoughts on such topics are usually hiding under the protective cover of organized religions. They can easily be recognized since 'they always have the answer' and appear confident, as much as they might be depressed individuals in the first place.

What is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?

Matt Savinar feels that depression results from undertanding PO, quote from his site:
If your subconscious perceives you are moving in an upwards direction, it will release the happy hormones like dopamine to keep you moving in that direction. If it perceives you are at a standstill, it will cause you to feel depressed. This has the effect of temporarily shutting you down which prevents you from wasting any more energy/time on endeavors unlikely to improving your chances of survival.

So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?

A third variation could be that for others the understanding of PO in its fascinating inevitabiliy has an adverse effect, meaning it actually acts as an energizing force. All one needs is the willingness to face death. This in itself is not related to depression at all, but a fact of life that we all need to deal with anyway.

[WildRose]

I enjoyed your post, allenwrench. I try to acknowledge the little things I'm thankful for every day, and it's interesting - they're often the simplest things, like a conversation with someone, or a few minutes spent looking at a fabulous garden.

Albente, in regards to your original post, I wonder how many people are attracted to peak oil-related sites because they're depressed. When I first visited such sites, it was curiosity that led the way, as I had seen the words "peak oil" on somewhat unrelated reading material. I think, after first learning about oil depletion issues, a person who tends to be depressed could become a lot more depressed. Someone who is more optimistic can investigate the issues and weigh the evidence, or the arguments, and then decide whether to do anything about what he or she has learned. I think it would be more difficult for someone who is feeling depressed to act, though. I don't think depression is a very good motivator. Fear can be, and anger can be, and optimism about mitigating the problems can be an effective motivator. I think that if someone was really depressed upon learning about PO, they'd have to get past that first before being able to act, although I could have it all wrong and someone who suffers from depression may have a totally different slant on this.

I have a recent example about the effect of depression on action, though. Last fall, my family celebrated my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. We had a lovely afternoon party for them, with 75 guests, wine and a nice lunch. In the planning stages, one sibling, who was depressed, thought the idea of the party was a bad one because our dad has a chronic illness and may not be able to handle an afternoon with so many people. After the sibling expressed his reservations about planning this party, the rest of us felt reluctant to go ahead. We soon shrugged off the negativity, though, and went ahead with the arrangements. The afternoon was a great success, everything came together perfectly, the guests all attended, my mom and dad were so thrilled with it all, and dad managed just fine. I was so glad we followed our instincts and acted optimistically, not being able to be sure that everything would turn out but just trusting it would.

I'm not suggesting that if people are optimistic about oil depletion and energy crises that all will be well and we can continue with our current lifestyles - no, it's not nearly that simple and I'm quite certain big changes are in store for us. But if we are drawn to these issues because we're depressed, I think our chances of survival are not nearly as good.

[BigTex]

The storms you have to weather in life are based upon your perception of reality. If you happen to perceive reality in harsh or unpleasant terms, you can find yourself in choppy seas.

When trying to navigate choppy seas, the question is what the ideal port would look like. For many, the ideal port is simply a comfortable delusion that explains hardship in terms that provides wholeness or meaning to the struggle.

For others, the ideal port is something like a real solution to the root cause of the problem of choppy seas. These people don't want to escape reality, they want to change reality so that it doesn't need to be escaped.

Unfortunately, the search for such a port can often lead to being slammed up against rocks mercilessly until you regret having undertaken the whole adventure.

I think that depression is the psychological feeling of being slammed up against these rocks.

[Ludi]

I've had a pretty darn easy life and my life now is just about ideal, but I still have depression (with and without medication). It's just the way my darn brain is. It's got nothing to do with what's actually going on or my attitude.

Oh well, them's the breaks!

[AlterEgo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', 'W')hat is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?....So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ve had a pretty darn easy life and my life now is just about ideal, but I still have depression (with and without medication). It's just the way my darn brain is. It's got nothing to do with what's actually going on or my attitude.

Oh well, them's the breaks!

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Has your life been easy psychologically?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Has your life been easy psychologically?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Has your life been easy psychologically?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Has your life been easy psychologically?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')Ludi, I'm only focusing on you because you often talk about how you have had a pretty easy life, but I don't really think you have, though obviously there is a lot to be said for never having had to skip a meal because there wasn't any food.

[Hagakure_Leofman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'W')hen trying to navigate choppy seas, the question is what the ideal port would look like. For many, the ideal port is simply a comfortable delusion that explains hardship in terms that provides wholeness or meaning to the struggle.

For others, the ideal port is something like a real solution to the root cause of the problem of choppy seas. These people don't want to escape reality, they want to change reality so that it doesn't need to be escaped.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hagakure_Leofman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'W')hen trying to navigate choppy seas, the question is what the ideal port would look like. For many, the ideal port is simply a comfortable delusion that explains hardship in terms that provides wholeness or meaning to the struggle.

For others, the ideal port is something like a real solution to the root cause of the problem of choppy seas. These people don't want to escape reality, they want to change reality so that it doesn't need to be escaped.