"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded... War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
- James Madison, Political Ob
by rerere » Sat 14 May 2005, 00:13:22
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')Ill informed??
Yes. You are. Allow me to demonstrate with your own words before you delete or change them in an attempt to hide your lack of knowledge.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')Well, thats interesting. I show you those pics arent isolated to DU, I explain DU is alpha particles which cant penetrate skin
I'm going to stick with simple atomic makeup here.
Depleted Uranium is Uranium where the 'valuable' 235 (where 235 is the atomic weight) and 234 weight is seperated from the 238 atomic weight.
Alpha particles are defined as:
"An Aplha Particle contains two protons and two neutrons". Given an alpha particle would have an atomic weight of 2 in no known number system does 2 = 238.
Ergo, to say "I explain DU is alpha particle" a meaningful statement. Depleted Uranium has an atomic weight of 238, and an Alpha Particle has an atomic weight of 2. 2 does not equal 238.
But hey who cares
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', ' ')alpha particles which cant penetrate skin
From some of the web pages:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ef ... gle+Search
But if materials that emit alpha particles are inhaled, ingested or enter your body through a cut in your skin, they can be very harmful. (Oh, like birth defects?)
Hence ingesting, inhaling or absorbing radioactive chemicals capable of emitting alpha or beta particles and thereby placing them inside delicate body parts such as the lungs, heart, brain or kidneys, always poses serious threats to human health. (Oh, would that be birth defects?)
I could go on, but why? SpecOP_007 can't be bothered to offer up a rebuttal beyond *swat*
"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded... War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
- James Madison, Political Ob
by Specop_007 » Sat 14 May 2005, 00:32:43
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rerere', 'D')o a search engine check on "depleted uranium burning semen" .
I'm at work, and I can assure you that the PC firewall will block me from entering that. Did you perhaps mean seamen?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rerere', 'N')ow, who wants to chip in and give SpecOP_007 a DU lollypop to suck on?
Go easy on Specop. He takes a lot of abuse around here. Personally I think he shows a lot of fortitude for sticking around. Yes his views are ill informed and reactionary at times, but if it weren't for him and a few others, we'd all just be sitting around kvetching to ourselves about how bad the world is. Without specop, this thread would have been
Title:DU sucks.
Reply: Yup
Reply: Uh huh.
Reply: Sure does
Reply: Sucks real bad.
What fun would that be?
I'll make anyone a deal. Standing offer, anytime.
I will agressively lick my tongue on a chunk of DU if you will stick yours in a jar of nice, non-radiocative Methylmercury
As further proof of "ill informed"
DU is primarily alpha, which is "harmless". It wont penetrate gloves, it wont penetrate skin. Its only danegrous if you ingest or breathe it.
DU is a heavy metal. Ever hear of lead poisoning? Of course. What do you do? Avoid lead.
Ever hear of DU poisoning? Sure, in isolated incidents. How to avoid it? Stay away from DU! How?
Dont climb on enemy tanks which have been shot! Dont sniff DU dust! SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE stuff here people.
Now, ever hear of a lead cloud? I sure havent. Heavy metals tend to settle, and very quickly at that. Its that whole "heavy" point. Now, ever hear of a DU cloud? Sure, the left leaning media portrays DU as some light gas that spans the globe.
Funny. Lead, a heavy metal. DU, a heavy metal. See a similarity here?
DU as a radioactive material is not dangerous unless you ingest it.
DU as a heavy metal will NOT float 50 or 100 miles downrange from its point of use.
Additionally, uranium is readily abundant in our earth. Its not some highly rare item. Depleted uranium, by its makeup, it LESS radioactive then narutal uranium, which is found as an "everyday" item in the soil!
So explain to me how in the Hell you can say SU is some horrible material? Its no worse then any other heavy metal! Its LESS hazardous then natural uranium!
What we have is a issue of education. We, as civilized educated people, know NOt to go eating and drinking and sniffing heavy metals. We know not to go poking around where they've been used as well.
Think your standard Iraqi knows about this? I doubt it. They see a disabled tank and just have to go play on it. Take pictures. Crawl around. Have fun (Hell, I might be inclined to do that too....)
What happens?
They get DU dust on their hands. They kick it up in the air and breathe it in. They get exposed to DU contaminants, Radium contaminants and Tritium contaminants. Simple as that.
I'm sure some of our boys poked around where maybe they shouldnt have as well.
Article
WOT write up (previously posted)
Information on uranium
Multiple articles
General info on uranium and depleted uranium.
Exposure to uranium and depleted uranium
* Under most circumstances, use of DU will make a negligible contribution to the overall natural background levels of uranium in the environment. Probably the greatest potential for DU exposure will follow conflict where DU munitions are used.
* A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.
* A UN expert team reported in November 2002 that they found traces of DU in three locations among 14 sites investigated in Bosnia following NATO airstrikes in 1995. A full report is expected to be published by UNEP in March 2003.
* Levels of DU may exceed background levels of uranium close to DU contaminating events. Over the days and years following such an event, the contamination normally becomes dispersed into the wider natural environment by wind and rain. People living or working in affected areas may inhale contaminated dusts or consume contaminated food and drinking water.
* People near an aircraft crash may be exposed to DU dusts if counterweights are exposed to prolonged intense heat. Significant exposure would be rare, as large masses of DU counterweights are unlikely to ignite and would oxidize only slowly. Exposures of clean-up and emergency workers to DU following aircraft accidents are possible, but normal occupational protection measures would prevent any significant exposure.
Intake of depleted uranium
* Average annual intakes of uranium by adults are estimated to be about 0.5mg (500 μg) from ingestion of food and water and 0.6 μg from breathing air.
* Ingestion of small amounts of DU contaminated soil by small children may occur while playing.
* Contact exposure of DU through the skin is normally very low and unimportant.
* Intake from wound contamination or embedded fragments in skin tissues may allow DU to enter the systemic circulation.
Absorption of depleted uranium
* About 98% of uranium entering the body via ingestion is not absorbed, but is eliminated via the faeces. Typical gut absorption rates for uranium in food and water are about 2% for soluble and about 0.2% for insoluble uranium compounds.
* The fraction of uranium absorbed into the blood is generally greater following inhalation than following ingestion of the same chemical form. The fraction will also depend on the particle size distribution. For some soluble forms, more than 20% of the inhaled material could be absorbed into blood.
* Of the uranium that is absorbed into the blood, approximately 70% will be filtered by the kidney and excreted in the urine within 24 hours; this amount increases to 90% within a few days.
Potential health effects of exposure to depleted uranium
* In the kidneys, the proximal tubules (the main filtering component of the kidney) are considered to be the main site of potential damage from chemical toxicity of uranium. There is limited information from human studies indicating that the severity of effects on kidney function and the time taken for renal function to return to normal both increase with the level of uranium exposure.
* In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.
* Erythema (superficial inflammation of the skin) or other effects on the skin are unlikely to occur even if DU is held against the skin for long periods (weeks).
* No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver.
* No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
* Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported.
Maximum radiation exposure limits and their limited application to uranium and depleted uranium
The International Basic Safety Standards, agreed by all applicable UN agencies in 1996, provide for radiation dose limits above normal background exposure levels.
* The general public should not receive a dose of more than 1 millisievert (mSv) in a year. In special circumstances, an effective dose of up to 5 mSv in a single year is permitted provided that the average dose over five consecutive years does not exceed 1 mSv per year. An equivalent dose to the skin should not exceed 50 mSv in a year.
* Occupational exposure should not exceed an effective dose of 20 mSv per year averaged over five consecutive years or an effective dose of 50 mSv in any single year. An equivalent dose to the extremities (hands and feet) or the skin should not surpass 500 mSv in a year.
* In case of uranium or DU intake, the radiation dose limits are applied to inhaled insoluble uranium-compounds only. For all other exposure pathways and the soluble uranium-compounds, chemical toxicity is the factor that limits exposure.
Let me ask you this. If DU is such a hazard, why do we have uranium mines and processing facilities that arent just mutant making factories in terms of what happens to the workers? Do you think Saddams chemical factories EPA standards for operation? Is there a chance the rise in birth defects and cancer could be attributed to this?
But, again, if we accept the fact it could be another material or chemical causing these high rates of cancer and birth defects then we dont get to have all that fin in finger poitning and bashing America would we? Yes, lets not let logic get in the way of our emotions........
"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded... War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
- James Madison, Political Ob
by Specop_007 » Sat 14 May 2005, 01:49:13
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')olitically it does matter. Its sad you cant see why.
My point is, not everyone who forms an opinion is pushing a political agenda. Nobody on this thread has stated that they are in support of liberal views on depleted uranium. I'm sure that many others, like myself, believe that DU should be banned from weapons because of the long lasting affects on living things.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t also chaps my ass NO ONE EVER mentions what Saddam did in his chemical factories. You dont think living downwind from Saddams gas plants was safe do you? You think Saddam gave 2 shits about EPA standards for air and water?
Good point. You see, not everyone is unwilling to accept that more than one factor has caused health problems in Iraq. I think that I am an open-minded individual who will stop and think before he posts. Saddam's chemical factories most likely have increased incidents of health problems such as birth defects and cancer over the decades. I read an article about a town in China that had many chemical plants built. The pollution to the soil was so bad that crops would not grow. There were terrible riots because of it. Chemical plants are very bad for soil, water, and living things. The problem is that DU is adding to the toxicity that the country already has.
I think there are many forms of pollution that is causing the destruction of the planet, not just DU. The truth is, DU probably has a much smaller overall impact compared to chemical plants and fossil fuel power plants. I know that many lakes in the NE United States are completely devoid of fish due to industrial pollution. I want to be careful not to exaggerate the effects of DU, but to just see it for what it is. I don't think it would be that weakening to the United States military to stop using it. The country already spends more on the military than all other countries combined. It would be nice for us to use less toxic materials.
Unfortunately, theres really no viable alternative to DU as it stands. Modern armor, generally being made from DU and utilizing shaped charges as well, is able to withstand almost every projectile known to made besides DU penetrators.
There is a new possible viable alternative in "Liquid metal". (Google search liquid metal, first result) although I dont believe theres been any testing with it in the past few years.
Its come down to having to use DU due to the technology available with our enemies. They use DU as armor, which forces our hand to use DU as a penetrator.
I'll agree its important to know the risks. I think, as I said earlier, it isnt an issue of DU being terribly dangerous as much as it is an issue of education. Dont play in the Devils Playground as it were.
Fortunately, the Devisl Playground is only a small area around the targets.
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