[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'I') don't think "creationism" is an issue anymore these days, in the States.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eligion was a foil for the unexplainable. As science unfolds mystery into comprehensive fact it has become less important in defining our existence in the universe.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eligion was a foil for the unexplainable. As science unfolds mystery into comprehensive fact it has become less important in defining our existence in the universe.

[Newfie]

Call it what you will (and your correction is noted and appreciated,) it is still a belief system. Endless growth is no different that virgin birth or old white guys that intervene with the universe on your behalf. It's a religion.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'C')all it what you will (and your correction is noted and appreciated,) it is still a belief system. Endless growth is no different that virgin birth or old white guys that intervene with the universe on your behalf. It's a religion.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')conomics, as practiced in the civilized world is a belief system whereby tangible value is impuned upon highly processed paper. The Puritian work ethic has been incorporated in the belief that hard work brings happiness.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Synapsid', 'S')ubjectivist,

80% of Muslims believe in young-Earth creationism? I didn't know it was that high. Can you give a source?

Thanks.

[Newfie]

Wild,

You utterly missed my point, perhaps I was being too cute.

Paper money has no intrinsic value. There is no difference, in the physical world, between a 5 and a 50. The percieved value existed only because of a BELIEF system. There is no intrinsic value in receiving communion. The percieved value exists only because of a BELIEF system.

The work ethic is now part of our problem. That will most likely change as we go through collapse, but for now it is. Having a strong work ethic in the past made sense, humanity was struggling to survive. That is WHY folks feel the way you reported, we have been bred to feel that way.

In the PRESENT it is a problem and we don't have the flexibility to cope. We have far more people than we need to feed ourselves. But we feel the need you talk of in order to feel good about ourselves. We NEED to work. But there aren't enough meaningful jobs to go around. So we invent jobs and make other jobs very inefficient in order to have something approaching full employment.

Examples abound....DHS, DMV, most goverment jobs, entire health insurance industry.

We BELIEVE we need jobs to be personally worthwhile. But in the quest for this self fullfillment we have created a consumer society which is extremely wasteful. The waste is ruining our planet and our own ability to thrive.

But we can't do that because we are stuck with a BELIEF system that says to be worthwhile you need to work, even if you do stupid and counter productive things. It makes as much sense as becoming a suicide bomber.

Let's say you have an old but serviceable car. Common sense says to keep it running and be wise with your money. But if you buy a new car, then you are helping the economy grow, by creating jobs. Even if those jobs use up resources, depleting the same resources our kids will need to thrive. It makes no sense when reviewed with an understanding of finite resources.

It only makes sense within a BELIEF system that prompted the belief in and acceptance of an imponderable (e.g., always was, always is, always shall be) in this case ....infinite resources, infinite growth. Belief in the infinite or omnipresent is a hallmark of a religion.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')aper money has no intrinsic value. There is no difference, in the physical world, between a 5 and a 50. The percieved value existed only because of a BELIEF system.

[SeaGypsy]

The money system is absolutely about belief. The reason heads of state have been the primary decoration of currency is not fashion, it is a guarantee by the head of state to back up the holder of the currency. The belief in the worth of a currency is based on the belief that the government which backs it will defend its worth.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he money system is absolutely about belief. The reason heads of state have been the primary decoration of currency is not fashion, it is a guarantee by the head of state to back up the holder of the currency. The belief in the worth of a currency is based on the belief that the government which backs it will defend its worth.

[SeaGypsy]

There's only a difference until there isn't. The day the government stops backing its currency, is the day the currency starts to become toilet paper. The USA invests massively on various projects purely to defend the dollar itself, paradoxical to parallel inflationary money printing, obviously a juggling game.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')here's only a difference until there isn't. The day the government stops backing its currency, is the day the currency starts to become toilet paper. The USA invests massively on various projects purely to defend the dollar itself, paradoxical to parallel inflationary money printing, obviously a juggling game.

[Newfie]

True belief is insidious, it requires abandonment of criticism.

Wild, consider this. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the statistical average of the way we function as a culture. Simplistically, how many individuals do you know who share your understanding of the dollar? Probably not many.

Now think about this, as a whole, does our culture, our collective understanding, our daily economic function allow that the dollar has real value?

If yes, then it is a belief system that is a part of our culture. It is a belief more widespread than Christianity in our USA.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')rue belief is insidious, it requires abandonment of criticism.

Wild, consider this. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the statistical average of the way we function as a culture. Simplistically, how many individuals do you know who share your understanding of the dollar? Probably not many.

Nope not many, but a few more than say five years ago.

Now think about this, as a whole, does our culture, our collective understanding, our daily economic function allow that the dollar has real value?

I think we have little understanding as a whole and in that we give the dollar real value.

If yes, then it is a belief system that is a part of our culture. It is a belief more widespread than Christianity in our USA.

[Newfie]

Cool!

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eligion was a foil for the unexplainable. As science unfolds mystery into comprehensive fact it has become less important in defining our existence in the universe.

[wildbourgman]

Ralfy, crony capitalism and/or the fascism of today that bails out failure in the name of growth and protecting the middle class is not the free market and never will be.

I think the sentence below works better. See we almost agree.

Free market capitalism that has been dormant for decades, which is why the global economy is controlled by financial corporations :

[Newfie]

Yes, we may have had free market capitalism. But that would be selecting for efficiency. It has morphed in Consumerism, as a distinct form. There may be pockets of capitalism, but the dominant form is consumerism. Capitalism, in its quest for efficiency, can shrink the workforce, which will constrain growth. Consummerism grows the marketplace through planned obsolescence and other methods contrary to efficieny and capitalism.

[wildbourgman]

Newfie, I think that the term you used "quest for efficiency" is where I think that free market capitalism in it's true and un-bastardized form is very similar to natural selection.

I also find it very telling that many leftward leaning people chide folks on the right for not believing in science when it fits thier agenda on issues such as climate change. Now, I'm of the belief that science doesn't stop just before it gets to homo sapiens. I'm of the view whether it's sociology, economics, biology or physics, having a robust welfare state can not be healthy for the human species. Now why would someone who will rebuke folks for not believing in evolution not also see that evolutionary concepts are still at play when it comes to humans today.

One example I would use is mate selection. A man naturally looks for physical attributes that will eventually assist his mate in rearing children, like large breast, no change there. A woman (and her family when applicable) used to look for a mans ability to provide for and protect her young. Now a mans ability to provide could go from being able to club bambi and drag it back to the cave or it could be his ability to navigate Wall Street and make a high six figure salary.

My thought is that in Welfare state a woman can throw all those concepts to the side, because it's not the father that is the provider, it's the state. So what I'm getting to is that if we are to believe in evolution and not an omnipotent being in control, then why is it such a foriegn concept to believe that humans are getting away from the concepts of Darwin genetically?

As an aside it's funny how folks like Obama quote scripture when it fits their narative as he has done recently and then mock religion when science better fits his agenda. I know that's just politics.