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Page added on May 2, 2015
Audi designs method to produce crude nonrenewable fuel sources from mixture of air and water
German automaker Audi says it has developed a process for making diesel fuel out of nothing but water and carbon dioxide, laying the groundwork for a green, carbon-neutral fuel.
Audi calls the diesel produced by the new process “e-diesel” and is trumpeting it as a “fuel of the future.” Audi developed the process in conjunction with Dresden-based energy technology company Sunfire.
“In developing Audi e-diesel we are promoting another fuel based on carbon dioxide that will allow long-distance mobility with virtually no impact on the climate,” said Reiner Mangold, Audi’s head of sustainable product development.
“Using carbon dioxide as a raw material represents an opportunity not just for the automotive industry in Germany, but also to transfer the principle to other sectors and countries.”
Cleaner and fossil-fuel free
The new process entails using high-temperature electrolysis (above 1,472°F) to break steam into its component hydrogen and oxygen gases. The hydrogen is pumped into a reactor, where it is combined with carbon dioxide collected either directly from the air or as a waste product from a local biogas plant. The ingredients are processed under high temperatures and pressures, Audi says, using electricity from renewable sources.
The process renders a form of crude oil called “blue crude.” This can then be refined using conventional oil refinery techniques into conventional diesel, which can either be used as an exclusive fuel or can be mixed with conventional, fossil-fuel derived diesel (or, presumably, biodiesel).
Unlike diesel derived from crude oil, the diesel derived from the new process is free of impurities such as sulfur or hydrocarbon rings, which contribute additional pollution. In addition, the fuel burns more easily.
“The engine runs quieter and fewer pollutants are being created,” Sunfire chief technology officer Christian von Olshausen said.
Audi and Sunfire have already built a dedicated processing plant, which is expected to produce 3,000 liters (around 800 gallons) of the “e-diesel” over the next few months.
At the fuel’s official launch, German minister of education and research Dr. Johanna Wanka filled up her Audi A8’s tank with the new fuel.
“This synthetic diesel, made using carbon dioxide, is a huge success for our sustainability research,” Wanka said. “If we can make widespread use of carbon dioxide as a raw material, we will make a crucial contribution to climate protection and the efficient use of resources, and put the fundamentals of the ‘green economy’ in place.”
Era of clean fuel in sight?
With rising petroleum prices and growing concern over the climate effects of fossil fuels, companies are working hard to find alternative ways to fuel vehicles. Audi also began producing a form of synthetic and purportedly more environmentally friendly methane in 2009 for use in gas-powered vehicles.
Another recent advance in petroleum-free fuel came from researchers at Yale University and the University of Bath, who announced the discovery of a new catalyst that could allow for the much more efficient and therefore less expensive production of hydrogen fuels.
All current techniques for producing hydrogen fuel are incredibly energy intensive. While the use of catalysts can reduce the energy needed, all known catalysts degrade quickly.
Unfortunately, the newly discovered catalyst is made of the incredibly rare material iridium. Thus, the importance of the discovery is less of a practical development and more of a promising area for future research.
According to researcher Ulrich Hintermair, hydrogen has great potential as a clean vehicle fuel because it provides a way to store energy generated from sources like the sun and wind. Energy from these sources could be used to split water into hydrogen fuel, which could then be burned and used for powering vehicles or other uses.
“Hydrogen is a fantastically versatile and environmentally friendly fuel,” Hintermair said, “however, hydrogen-powered applications are only as ‘green’ as the hydrogen on which they run. Currently, over 90 per cent is derived from fossil fuels.”
18 Comments on "Audi designs method to produce crude nonrenewable fuel sources from mixture of air and water"
Rodster on Sat, 2nd May 2015 6:13 pm
“Unfortunately, the newly discovered catalyst is made of the incredibly rare material iridium. Thus, the importance of the discovery is less of a practical development and more of a promising area for future research.”
If they had used this as the first paragraph I would have stopped reading. As John Michael Greer likes to call it: the superstitions of technologies.
Nony on Sat, 2nd May 2015 6:22 pm
Not just the catalyst but the cost of the electricity* for doing the electrolysis. This thing looks like a total lemon. If GTL is not economic, what makes them think that adding on the costs of electrolysis and CO2 capture from atmosphere (where it is very dilute) will have any chance.
*which will cost even MORE if it is only from renewable energy sources.
Perk Earl on Sat, 2nd May 2015 6:25 pm
So if I’m getting this right, under high temperature and pressure they are able to separate hydrogen from water without a catalyst? Is that right? Then they mix it with CO2 under pressure and zingo, they’ve got fuel?
They don’t mention the energy expended to make the fuel so one question is what’s the EROEI?
No price per gallon, but of course they haven’t scaled up yet.
They also describe it as a fuel of the future. If they are so excited about it like it’s a breathrough, then why can’t it be a fuel sooner than later?
Perk Earl on Sat, 2nd May 2015 6:26 pm
Rodster, I wasn’t sure if that paragraph was intended for this new process or related to one of the processes described later in the article.
apneaman on Sat, 2nd May 2015 6:52 pm
The Element Iridium
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele077.html
Kevin Cobley on Sat, 2nd May 2015 9:14 pm
Thermodynamic crap.
It’s obviously a fake post, look at the name of the German minister of education and research Dr Johanna Wanka.
Then google wanker.
I’m still trying to sell my Di-Lithium crystals.
apneaman on Sat, 2nd May 2015 9:20 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Wanka
Plantagenet on Sat, 2nd May 2015 10:51 pm
This discovery has the potential to create a liquid fuel that is carbon neutral. My hat is off to Audi and the Dutch and especially to Dr. Wanka.
Perk Earl on Sun, 3rd May 2015 2:17 am
I found the article below which debunks Audi’s new fuel as being a game changer.
http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2015/04/30/is-audis-carbon-neutral-diesel-a-game-changer/
Is Audi’s Carbon-Neutral Diesel a Game-Changer?
“Occasionally I am deluged with inquiries about a particular news story. That happened this week. As the inquiries mounted, I decided I better address the story. After I saw one more gushing, uncritical report on CNN, I knew a reality check was in order.
Many people have already suspected that there has to be a catch. Of course there is. This process requires carbon dioxide to be captured from the air, and hydrogen to be produced from electrolysis. It is true that the atmosphere — nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbon dioxide — contains all of the ingredients necessary to make all sorts of unimaginable things. The raw ingredients are there for fertilizer, pharmaceuticals, plastics, and certainly fuel. But the key ingredients, carbon dioxide and water, are the products of combustion. Burning diesel creates carbon dioxide and water. Converting them back into diesel takes a lot of energy.”
And if it takes a lot of energy, the EROEI will be low which means it’s not a game changer.
shortonoil on Sun, 3rd May 2015 10:04 am
They don’t mention the energy expended to make the fuel so one question is what’s the EROEI?
Energy can be neither created, or destroyed. So these guys have designed, and built another perpetual motion machine? In the 1800’s charlatans traveled the country selling such devises to credulous buyers. Buy one now, and get a free bottle of Dr. Doolittle magic elixir; cures warts, arthritis, and the scabies.
joe on Sun, 3rd May 2015 10:26 am
Not sure how investors can allow money to go on that cr*p. How much did it cost?
Perk Earl on Sun, 3rd May 2015 12:53 pm
“Energy can be neither created, or destroyed.”
I didn’t say they made the energy in the fuel, I asked how much energy did it take to make the fuel. In other words what was their energy returned on energy invested.
zoidberg on Sun, 3rd May 2015 1:38 pm
If it’s collecting intermittent energy from wind and solar that might not get used on the grid or largely wasted in transmission then eroi isn’t that important.it seems to be more a question of scaling and the return on capital invested in the plant vs capital returned on burning the fuel.
shortonoil on Sun, 3rd May 2015 1:42 pm
I didn’t say they made the energy in the fuel, I asked how much energy did it take to make the fuel. In other words what was their energy returned on energy invested.
We know that you can’t get chemical energy out of CO2 or water. Its called the Gibbs Function! So the energy that came out must have been put in. Because no process is perfectly 100% efficient the EROI must have been less than 1:1.
Chances are, it was a lot less than 1:1. Anyway, selling this as a fuel source is ridiculous, and sounds like another investor scam.
ulenspiegel on Sun, 3rd May 2015 3:05 pm
The EROEI is 1 : 1.5, you have a high temperature electrolysis (90%) and a second reaction with 70-80% efficiency, i.e. overall around 70%.
@Perk Earl
Your argument does not make sense. We look at a thermodynamic cycle, what do we expect? 🙂
zoidberg on Sun, 3rd May 2015 3:45 pm
Its a given this takes more energy to make than it returns when burned. It’s a matter of collecting energy and converting it to a denser more usuable medium than intermittent renewable energy. The question is whether it’s economically viable to do so. I’d say it has good potential As long as it powers strategic machines and not NASCAR races or wasteful consumerism.
zoidberg on Sun, 3rd May 2015 3:46 pm
The eroi of wind and solar can be quite good, depending. Maybe enough to pay for this app.
Perk Earl on Sun, 3rd May 2015 4:42 pm
“@Perk Earl
Your argument does not make sense. We look at a thermodynamic cycle, what do we expect? :-)”
My argument? What exactly is my argument? I’m saying they took water and heated it up under pressure to extract the hydrogen and that took energy. Then they separated or captured CO2. Then they mixed the hydrogen and CO2 at high pressure to produce, form, make, whatever word is the best technical word to describe it and the final result was a fuel.
That took a certain amount of energy to accomplish and I was originally noting the article did not explain that, which is the most important consideration if it’s going to be touted as a replacement for fuel refined from oil.
Short is just trying to get me on a technicality of which I never claimed. I never claimed in any post above that the Audi process ‘Created’ energy. I was simply trying to find out the EROEI of the final fuel product.
Why people try to make something into what it isn’t I have no idea, but maybe they have an agenda. They’ve decided they don’t like some poster, so they make arguments up.