Renewable Energy in Numbers

14 Comments on "Renewable Energy in Numbers"

Arthur on Tue, 11th Jun 2013 11:45 pm 



For people discouraged by the limited penetration of wind and solar, as displayed in the 2nd figure, here a reminder of what happened with the penetration of the internet: in many countries from 0 to >50% in 15 years:

http://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/Count_Host.gif

DC on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 12:02 am 



You know, I wont argue that well see more renewables in the coming years, but we also see increased energy consumption to go along with it. IoW, at best, we’d be standing still, and certainly not getting at the root of the issue, which is over-consumption of energy, no matter how its produced.

The other thing you analogy fails to consider was, the most powerful and corrupt corporations in the world were NOT opposing the expansion of the internet every step of the way were they? The growth of the internet was a logistical challenge. There was big demand, and hardly any organized opposition to it whatsoever.

Wind, and solar, however, face very real obstacles. Both in the real world, and in corporate world. In the real world, renewables have to contend with a world built by and for fossil-fuels. Green power can integrate into it, but its not an ideal fit. The real meat of issue however, is extremely well funded opposition to the fossil-fuel BAU from the most corrupt and well fund corporate entities in world history. So I have to call you on your analogy on this one-sorry Arthur.

The growth of the internet and renewables are not really congruent. One cant make the argument that A is kinda like B, therefore A=B.

kiwichick on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 1:18 am 



wave power has potential to provide 30% of Australia’s current electricity demand

and geothermal can provide 100% of Australian demand and up to 30 % of demand in the UK

however we also desperately need to transition to a stable human population since this planet isn’t getting any bigger

BillT on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 4:53 am 



Energy use, per capita, has been dropping for decades. It is the Western countries that are so heavily dependent on oil and electric that will have the most pain. Whereas, countries lime the Philippines that has a small use of those items will hurt much less. Here, they power the few cities and little in the countryside.

Arthur, you cannot equate wind/solar power systems with the internet. A bit like comparing apples to melons. An apple tree takes maybe 5-8 years before it can produce. A melon takes a few months. and the internet was up and running for many years (20-30) before the public got a crack at it. Even then, it was for the wealthy only in the 10 years. It is only in the last 5-10 years that it became so inexpensive and available. But, it is a system that takes many billions of dollars per year to maintain.

We started too late and too slow to ever replace a significant percentage of our energy wants with ANY ‘renewable’. We don’t have 15 years. Maybe not even 10.

Arthur on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 6:41 am 



DC, I do not think we will see a higher energy consumption per capita, in the coming years, certainly not in the West. We are the largest users of a commodity that is already very expensive. In Europe people are driving less and there are less traffic jams.

My point was not to equate the internet and solar panels, my point was to illustrate how fast a ‘new’ technology can be adapted, once the time is rife. And if you realize that many people bought a new computer every three years or so, you can conclude that the money spent on IT during the last 15 years is probably larger than it will take to invest in an installation that will last 25+ years.

BillT on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 10:31 am 



Arthur, I hope you are correct, but those wind towers will not last 25 years, nor will the solar systems. Beyond the panels are the converters and other electronics necessary to even make them useful in home applications.

If those are even have even 100% more longevity, they will likely last much less than 20 years before needing to be replaced. I see ‘renewables’ such as those being extenders of energy, but not lasting substitutes.

As for electronics being as cheap and accessible as they are now, the failure of globalization will end that. Does Europe have all of the materials to make them if imports stop? The wind towers alone take hundreds of kilos of rare earths (each) if my sources are correct. Where are they mined in Europe? Ditto for solar panel component minerals and ores. The US cannot stand alone and maintain today’s taken for granted lifestyle. Why do you believe Europe will?

Arthur on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 11:20 am 



“but those wind towers will not last 25 years, nor will the solar systems.”

Are you sure? There are Dutch windmills around that are four centuries old. The Eiffel tower is ca. 130 years old and can endure another century at least. No reason why a steel windtower cannot last for two centuries, like lighthouses near the coast.

Solar panels are garanteed to deliver 80% after 25 years. The problem is, it is new technology, so there are not many panels around of that age. Here is some encouraging research:

http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/low-degredation-of-solar-cells-over-time/

91.7% after 20 years of service.

Arthur on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 12:32 pm 



“The wind towers alone take hundreds of kilos of rare earths (each) if my sources are correct.”

Never heard of that. Steel needing rare earths?

Here a German company experimenting with wooden wind tower:

http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/timber-tower/

They are also working on concrete towers.

The US cannot stand alone and maintain today’s taken for granted lifestyle. Why do you believe Europe will?””

I have never suggested that Europe will be able to maintain it’s current lifestyle. We will all have to accept less and forget about mass transport like cars and planes, also for Europe, like everywhere else. But I do not believe in no-future scenarios.

Bogdan on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 1:35 pm 



Arthur, the wind turbine magnets need the rare earths, not the steel structure.

Ed on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 3:27 pm 



I don’t know if this is relevant or not. Mean energy per capita in Britain is about 200 kWh/day. This is for everything, including transport, heating, food and consumer goods. I worked out that wind farm generation in Britain (for 2012) produced 1 kWh/day per capita. This just illustrates the size of the task we face. (I can provide data sources and calculations if requested)

dashster on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 5:49 pm 



@DC “oW, at best, we’d be standing still, and certainly not getting at the root of the issue, which is over-consumption of energy, no matter how its produced.”

Why did you not mention population growth – both in the world and in the United States (via immigration)?

dashster on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 5:51 pm 



The energy outlook for the future will look a lot better once population growth starts being viewed as part of the problem, instead of the way it is currently viewed in the United States – part of the solution.

Ed on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 6:28 pm 



In Turkey, the president is promoting families of 3 or more children as he sees this as a way of promoting growth in the country. You’ve got to despair sometimes!

DC on Wed, 12th Jun 2013 8:12 pm 



@Dashter, because I didnt I had to explicitly mention it, Ive said it plenty of times in other comments. I was more after Arthurs equating the web and wind turbines-and that power consumption(overall) is still growing which is problematic no matter the power is produced.