Energy Return on Investment

9 Comments on "Energy Return on Investment"

Arthur on Wed, 22nd May 2013 3:43 pm 



The idea that you need eroei 12 for higher arts is flawed. There were beautiful opera houses in Europe in 1737. Not even slavery was necessary.

http://www.venere.com/blog/europe-opera-houses/

J-Gav on Wed, 22nd May 2013 3:48 pm 



The take-away is that EROI is trending downward and Hall is well-qualified to write on this subject, opera houses or no opera houses …

ian807 on Wed, 22nd May 2013 4:25 pm 



Arthur,

Yes, there were opera houses and pyramids too. There were NOT, however, *many* of them compared to what has been built with hydrocarbon energy in the modern era.

To maintain an industrial civilization for a population of 7 billion plus will probably require a better energy return than 12:1.

Arthur on Wed, 22nd May 2013 5:30 pm 



ian,

Flushing/Zealand 1669:

http://tinyurl.com/nf8f7sw

Zero fossil fuels, yet large buildings, churches, fortifications, no slavery, a few windmills and sailing ships. This is truely a ‘world made by hand’. EROEI is a typical concept from the fossil fuel age and certainly has it’s value in the context of industrial civilization, but it suggests that there is no civilization possible without fossil fuels. And that is not true.

Plantagenet on Wed, 22nd May 2013 9:27 pm 



Sorry, Arthur, but In fact there was slavery in the 18th century. There was also colonialism. Within Europe itself most of the peansantry were little better than slaves.

The wealth flowing into Europe in the 18th century was indeed “made by hand”, but it was the hands of slaves, oppressed colonial people, peasants and exploited workers.

Dmyers on Thu, 23rd May 2013 1:32 am 



So what is the energy return from a cathedral or an oil painting? I want to find the applicable unit for this comparison, but that will take some effort.

But this is how the idea works. At level one, a human toils constantly only to meet the necessities of survival. If enough necessities are accumulated by the application of energy (EI), then human energy that used to be poured into acquisition of necessities may now be spent on more abstract activities, up to the arts.

By this reckoning, there would, indeed, have to be a high surplus of energy in order for there to be a formalized artistic element in a civilization. And where artistic products have appeared, their appearance was only possible due a surplus of energy, in whatever manner it was leveraged, and in whatever year it occurred.

BillT on Thu, 23rd May 2013 1:35 am 



Planet, you are correct. The big buildings were usually Catholic Churches built on the backs of Catholics. The large number of buildings to house the arts didn’t happen until AFTER coal was in use in the 1800s. It also takes an excess of wealth to support arts and the like and usually it is through wealthy patrons whose wealth also came from the slave labor or serfs.

The future will see the arts die off as there will not be excess energy/wealth to support them. The lifestyle that has been possible, for the last 200 years of carbon, will not exist in a seven billion plus world after the crash.

Arthur on Thu, 23rd May 2013 6:18 am 



Plant, outright slavery existed in the Roman empire. Serfdom existed in the Middle Ages but started to decline after 1347. The city of Flushing was built without slavery whatsoever, entirely with local people and local resources. Even Paris of de Hausmann was built before the fossil fuel age. You could even argue that ALL European high art cities were built before coal and oil. In the modern world high art does not exist anymore, just endless concrete roads and bridges and asphalt and highrise buildings and traffic jams.

Stephen on Thu, 23rd May 2013 7:18 am 



I think it depends on the art how much is needed. Probably someone playing a song on a musical instrument in a classroom or home takes less energy than say a large concert or play that uses high power lighting, amplified sound, etc. Dancing uses more energy than walking but there is no reason dance for short amounts of time can’t continue since all it is is moving one’s body different ways.

Even visual art such as paintings, sculpture, etc existed long before petroleum was invented, much less widespread. The Egyptian Pyramids with their beatiful artwork were built around 2500 BCE.

So I suspect the arts will continue in some form, maybe with reduced technical stuff attached and less travel (more local bands who make their own music). I could see a farmer who has a surplus of ethanol or biodiesel, or algae fuel turning on the generator to power a rock concert as a special day. A solar panel during the daytime might have enough power to run a PA amp too.